Freethought & Rationalism Archive

keyser_soze · 06-02-2003, 04:45 AM

And you also forgot to include the other parts of 1)

1 a : something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of such tenets <pedagogical dogma> c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds emphasis mine...which clearly shows why we abhor dogma.....

Goliath · 06-02-2003, 05:09 AM

danielius,

By definition, a dogma should not and can not be questioned.

I repeat: I hold no dogmas in my life, and I would rather die than do so.

Sincerely,

Goliath

AJ113 · 06-02-2003, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by danielius
Now, this is a point also worth affirming: I abhor violence and bigotry. I hate it whether it is done by those who profess religion or by those who profess none.

But the god that you worship is the worst offender, dude. Assuming that you believe the bible of course.

Calzaer · 06-02-2003, 07:49 AM

The syntax reminds me of TheologyWeb's AI program, or a "Random Apologetics Essay" generator. The fact that he refuses to respond to anyone directly leads me to suspect this might not be a sincere person.

emotional · 06-02-2003, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by danielius
To a Christian, however, it is not dreams and fairytales that are unreal, but this fragile, half-hearted world.

That's the Hindu dogma of maya (illusion) you're advancing here.

Quote:

And this is part of the reason I wanted to know if atheists found the Bible too realistic or too unrealistic. Haven't they ever thought, perhaps it isn't the Bible's reality that's lacking, but this world's?

The reality of the Bible is disputed from Page One. Gen 1:16 says God created "two great lights" to light the Earth. Of these two great lights, neither is very great (think Antares or Betelgeuse), and only one of them is a light (the moon reflects light). Chalk one up for Biblical reality.

Quote:

I don't believe Christianity is anti-science.

Well then, it is. Not only because of the example I've just given, but in its whole attitude towards the question of life and death. At the centre of Christianity is the doctrine that we are all born sinners and going to die because our two parents, Adam and Eve, ate of the forbidden fruit. Now that's an anti-science account if there ever was one! We post-1859 people should now better than that: Adam and Eve never existed, we're descended from ape-like ancestors, death is a natural thing that's been going on since the beginning of life, and the tale of original sin is pure rubbish. Christianity hasn't an evidential leg to stand on.

AndresDeLaHoz · 06-02-2003, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by danielius
What is 'reasonable'?
I believe Christianity is reasonable, relative to the extraordinary nature and character of being alive and a unique, conscious, self-aware living process. Being that life is so fantastic - even in the literal sense - so mysterious and so wonderful (again in the literal sense), I hold that the Christian world-view is proportionate in its embrace of story, of mystery, of wonder.

Nice non-answer.

Bumble Bee Tuna · 06-02-2003, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by danielius
I believe Christianity is reasonable, relative to the extraordinary nature and character of being alive and a unique, conscious, self-aware living process. Being that life is so fantastic - even in the literal sense - so mysterious and so wonderful (again in the literal sense), I hold that the Christian world-view is proportionate in its embrace of story, of mystery, of wonder.

You defined reasonable nicely, and then you did nothing to make Christianity fit that definition. "Marked by sound judgement"? You think faith in an unproven, contradictory book is "sound judgement"? That's insane! Nope, Christianity is not reasonable.

Everyone has dogmas in this ordinary sense, ideas or beliefs which they hold to be authoritative; a yardstick by which they measure up new ideas or opinions.

Nope, can't say I believe in the concept of authority, so I don't have dogmas.

So the person who states that they have no dogmas because all their beliefs are subject to question, has in fact stated their dogma that all beliefs they hold must be subject to question. It is simply the ABC of thinking.

No. Dogma is not synonymous with belief. You're using it improperly, perhaps you don't know the meaning of the "hold to be authoritative" caveat?

I was an atheist at one time. I was brought up without any fixed ideas on religion or God. I came to faith through study, and then because I found Christianity's a reasonable world-view. Now, I do not say that it is the only world-view, or the only reasonable world-view. It is enough for me to know that it is a proportionate and sane way of looking at things, including everything.

You may define sane as including believing fantastic, unproven stories, and having delusions (beliefs that are still held despite being shown proof against them, most Christians have these but I don't know if you do), fine, but I find those things to be part and parcel with the definition of insane.

Now, this is a point also worth affirming: I abhor violence and bigotry.

As has been stated earlier, Yahweh is definitely not your kind of guy if you abhor violence. You've read the OT, right?

I hate it whether it is done by those who profess religion or by those who profess none. It is one-dimensional however to argue that Christianity is a violent religion. I don't subscribe to the idea that extremes are in themselves bad, and that in everything we must avoid one clear thing or another and end up with something compromised. Sometimes it is justifiable to feel the extreme emotion of anger, or of hate (or of love for that matter). I hate murder. Hate it. That there is poverty raging in the world makes me very angry. These are extreme emotions, but proportionate and real ones. Christianity wasn't only home to the Crusaders; but to pacifists - today we have Quakers. If an atheist will accuse Christianity of an extreme, I would only ask that they be honest enough to admit the other with it. If you must accuse Christianity of loving war, don't forget also to accuse it of hating war.

Yup, except war-hating Christians are a small minority, war-loving Christians are a large majority.

Finally, to the question of reality. Yes, I find reality real, only that it isn't real enough. As I've said already, Christians don't ask for less reality, but for more. The universe is meant to contain all things, yet it can't contain the imagination of a single child. We never see people looking for more air, but we do see people - a very great many - looking for more reality.

What is this "more reality" nonsense? Reality is not something you can get "more" of.

-B

danielius · 06-02-2003, 08:34 AM

To Keyser: I gave the definition of 'dogma', referenced in a major, standard dictionary, which I am using for the purposes of this debate/dialogue. As the dictionary itself says, the definition has been bogged down in recent times by the idea that to be dogmatic is to be unquestioning. I do not agree.

Dogmas are ideas or opinions which we hold to be true, and therefore use as our yardstick to measure the relative truth or untruth of other ideas or opinions. So, Goliath, I say again: everyone has dogmas. Even if you don't call them that.

To Calzaer: I promise you, I'm real, even if you find my syntax unusual. I haven't ever been to TheologyWeb; and would probably find it boring if I did have a look.

To 'emotional', I'm not advocating 'maya'. I never said that the world is one big dream or illusion. I qualified the quote you give in my subsequent post: this world is real, but not real enough.

Also, at the heart of Christianity is, in fact, the concept of 'Original Sin'. What it means, at core, is that we are all equal. The U.S Founding fathers put it well: 'We hold it to be self-evident that all men are created equal.' It is this Christian dogma which shatters the myth of 'aristocracy' ('government by the best'), or the idea that men and women should be ruled by a 'wise few'. There are no wise few, just masses of ordinary, loving, complex men and women. It is well enough that the Founding Fathers made it enough of a priority to put into words their conviction of the divine equality of men. For it is true that if men are not created equal, they are certainly evolved unequal.

Daniel

danielius · 06-02-2003, 08:58 AM

To 'Bumblebee tuna':

authoritative - reliable

(Reference: The Little Oxford Dictionary)

This is the sense in which I say that dogmas are simply ideas or opinions which we hold to be authoritative; in other words, ideas or opinions which we rely on, as the yardstick by which we measure the relative truth or untruth of new ideas and opinions.

Now, if you really do believe that you can rely on nothing for your ideas and beliefs, than this is a dogma - no idea or belief can be absolutely relied upon - except that it is a dogma, and a contradictory one at that.

Insanity has nothing to do with having imagination; on the contrary, it is more often logic that leads to lunacy. Mathematicians go mad, poets do not.

Is the sunflower in a photo on a fridge-door more or less real than the sunflower growing in the garden?

Daniel

emotional · 06-02-2003, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by danielius
Also, at the heart of Christianity is, in fact, the concept of 'Original Sin'. What it means, at core, is that we are all equal.

That's what Original Sin means?! That we're all equal? Is that a newfangled version of Christianity you're upholding? As far as I have heard, Original Sin means we're all born sinners, depraved before God, separated from Him and bound hellwards unless redeemed by faith in the blood of His son. Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, therefore we are all equal? Is that an allegorical view of scripture you're espousing?

What does Christianity mean to you? What is Jesus' role? What does God expect of us? Interested to know...

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06-02-2003, 04:45 AM	#31
keyser_soze Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: god's judge (pariah) Posts: 1,281	And you also forgot to include the other parts of 1) 1 a : something held as an established opinion; especially : a definite authoritative tenet b : a code of such tenets <pedagogical dogma> c : a point of view or tenet put forth as authoritative without adequate grounds emphasis mine...which clearly shows why we abhor dogma.....

06-02-2003, 05:09 AM	#32
Goliath Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Fargo, ND, USA Posts: 1,849	danielius, By definition, a dogma should not and can not be questioned. I repeat: I hold no dogmas in my life, and I would rather die than do so. Sincerely, Goliath

06-02-2003, 07:49 AM	#34
Calzaer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,762	The syntax reminds me of TheologyWeb's AI program, or a "Random Apologetics Essay" generator. The fact that he refuses to respond to anyone directly leads me to suspect this might not be a sincere person.

06-02-2003, 08:34 AM	#38
danielius Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: UK Posts: 51	To Keyser: I gave the definition of 'dogma', referenced in a major, standard dictionary, which I am using for the purposes of this debate/dialogue. As the dictionary itself says, the definition has been bogged down in recent times by the idea that to be dogmatic is to be unquestioning. I do not agree. Dogmas are ideas or opinions which we hold to be true, and therefore use as our yardstick to measure the relative truth or untruth of other ideas or opinions. So, Goliath, I say again: everyone has dogmas. Even if you don't call them that. To Calzaer: I promise you, I'm real, even if you find my syntax unusual. I haven't ever been to TheologyWeb; and would probably find it boring if I did have a look. To 'emotional', I'm not advocating 'maya'. I never said that the world is one big dream or illusion. I qualified the quote you give in my subsequent post: this world is real, but not real enough. Also, at the heart of Christianity is, in fact, the concept of 'Original Sin'. What it means, at core, is that we are all equal. The U.S Founding fathers put it well: 'We hold it to be self-evident that all men are created equal.' It is this Christian dogma which shatters the myth of 'aristocracy' ('government by the best'), or the idea that men and women should be ruled by a 'wise few'. There are no wise few, just masses of ordinary, loving, complex men and women. It is well enough that the Founding Fathers made it enough of a priority to put into words their conviction of the divine equality of men. For it is true that if men are not created equal, they are certainly evolved unequal. Daniel

06-02-2003, 08:58 AM	#39
danielius Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: UK Posts: 51	To 'Bumblebee tuna': authoritative - reliable (Reference: The Little Oxford Dictionary) This is the sense in which I say that dogmas are simply ideas or opinions which we hold to be authoritative; in other words, ideas or opinions which we rely on, as the yardstick by which we measure the relative truth or untruth of new ideas and opinions. Now, if you really do believe that you can rely on nothing for your ideas and beliefs, than this is a dogma - no idea or belief can be absolutely relied upon - except that it is a dogma, and a contradictory one at that. Insanity has nothing to do with having imagination; on the contrary, it is more often logic that leads to lunacy. Mathematicians go mad, poets do not. Is the sunflower in a photo on a fridge-door more or less real than the sunflower growing in the garden? Daniel

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