Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Magus55 · 06-11-2003, 03:53 PM

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Originally posted by xsquid

What is it YOU want, Magus, and how do you know you're getting it, and not being deceived yourself?

What do you mean, what do I want - in relation to what? Salvation? How do I know that? Because God said so thats how.

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No, the question is, What makes YOU think I would? I'd like very much to believe in Belldandy--a more beautiful, benevolent deity I've never heard of. And she isn't stopping me from believing in her either. But I can't--because I know she's not real.

You don't believe in God now, so why would you later? Many people saw miracles in the OT - and still didn't believe - do you think you are any different? God doesn't make mistakes - if you end up never believing Him - its your fault - you made that choice. If you were open to following God - you wouldn't fall for the AC's promises.

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It sure is: John 4:22 "For salvation is of the Jews." And again: Matt 15:26 "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel...It is not meet to take the children's bread, and cast it to dogs." Sounds like only the Jews are gonna make it through that gate. Are you one of 'em?

Yup, actually i am a Jew. And if you notice John 4:22 in the context, its referring to the worship of God by the Jews in the Old Testament. Notice it says salvation is of the Jews? God's plan for the salvation of humanity began with His convenant to Abraham - the first Jew. So Salvation is of the Jews - because the Jews are who God chose to fulfill His plan. But God also opens salvation to the Gentiles - as is made quite apparent in Romans.

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How so? Unlike Saul, I didn't hunt down Jews and lead in stoning them; but you'll hardly deny that Damascus thing was a hit in the head. If he could do that to Saul/Paul, why not me? Why not everyone, since he's all-powerful and such. Or maybe he's building up his power for a super-blast, like some videogame hero, and has been doing it for the last 2000 years.

God had a special purpose for Paul all along - maybe Paul was more open to accepting God than you are? I don't know - if I did know your motives and why God brings some to change and not others - I'd be God. But since we differ on the meaning of God's character anyway - its irrelevent. I see God as infallible, perfect, loving, Holy, and Righteous - therefore - for what every reason something happens the way it does - its God's will for it to be that way, and He has a very good reason for it.

emotional · 06-11-2003, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
I see God as infallible, perfect, loving, Holy, and Righteous - therefore - for what every reason something happens the way it does - its God's will for it to be that way, and He has a very good reason for it.

Which means He doesn't deceive people or put them in a chamber of eternal torture! What you believe, Magus, is nothing short of blasphemy against the All-Holy God! You must repent!

Magus55 · 06-11-2003, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by emotional
Which means He doesn't deceive people or put them in a chamber of eternal torture! What you believe, Magus, is nothing short of blasphemy against the All-Holy God! You must repent!

He doesn't deceive - He lets YOU be deceived, because thats what you want. And eternal torment in Hell is the only punishment fitting of a lifetime of crimes against God.

Lol, what i believe is blasphemous? What i believe is from God himself - so basically you are saying God blasphemies God - yeah sure, right. This coming from what an atheist? Certaintly not a Christian - so you don't even consider God holy.

And I do repent for my sins. Have you?

winstonjen · 06-11-2003, 04:01 PM

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Originally posted by Demigawd
What about all those stockings full of coal?

That can be used as a fuel source - a blessing in disguise!

Magus:

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Santa isn't required to punish the guilty either.

One more reason to worship him INSTEAD of your god, especially if punishment for ANYthing and EVERYthing is eternal suffering. Doesn't seem fair. It seems fair to YOU because you don't believe it's going to happen to you.

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Do you think you could ever follow the some 600+ OT laws perfectly? God knew we couldn't do it, which is why He planned to do it himself all along - so that despite sinning against Him, and destroying His creation - all is not lost for us - and we can eventually return to how things were meant to be.

Hey, I've got a better idea - DON'T MAKE SO MANY LAWS IN THE FIRST PLACE. Your deity's attitude is equivalent to cops on a sting operation to catch prostitutes in an area of town that is so poor that people have no other option.

And what you said to Rational BAC:

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And another thing - for someone who considers himself a Christian and believes in Jesus as your Lord and Savior - you are pretty harsh against fellow Christians, whether it be a fundamentalist or not. You sound just like the atheists on this board - nothing like a Christian devoted to Christ .

Oh, the IRONY! Magus, you haven't even told us what a 'true Christian' is yet!

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What do you mean, what do I want - in relation to what? Salvation? How do I know that? Because God said so thats how.

Finally! The basis behind Magus' belief is revealed!

Demigawd · 06-11-2003, 04:10 PM

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Originally posted by winstonjen
It seems fair to YOU because you don't believe it's going to happen to you.

:notworthy

You rock, Winstonjen. In that one sentence, you've summed up what is so odious about the fundamentalist mindset. Every fundamentalist I grew up around had this exact same outlook: "I kiss God's ass just right, and you don't. Fear my religion's l33t hellfire, infidel!"

Mageth · 06-11-2003, 04:10 PM

And eternal torment in Hell is the only punishment fitting of a lifetime of crimes against God.

If that's god's standard, then, well, no one should consider god "holy". More like a sadistic monster. But if there is a god, I think that's more likely to be your standard than hers.

Do you realize what eternity means? Do you realize that someone who (to use one of your examples of "sin") occasionally looked at Playboy would spend an infinite amount of time suffering in hell for each time they looked?

That's just too screwed up a notion to make any sense at all. I don't know how anyone who could worship and revere such a conception of a beastly god. If god's real, I think she'll personally kick the ass of whoever came up with the notion she'd be mean enough to do something like that, and of those that persist in spreading that notion.

emotional · 06-11-2003, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
And eternal torment in Hell is the only punishment fitting of a lifetime of crimes against God.

Eternal torment in Hell is not a fitting punishment even for Hitler. Eternal torment in Hell is a satanic, demonic, diabolical contraption invented by priests in order to attract the maximum of people to their religion.

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Lol, what i believe is blasphemous?

Exactly.

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What i believe is from God himself

What you believe is from the Devil.

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This coming from what an atheist? Certaintly not a Christian - so you don't even consider God holy.

I'm not an atheist, and this is what I believe:

God is the Creator of the universe. He is both immanent and transcendent. Between the Creator and the creation a great gulf is fixed, but He pervades all of the creation. He is the All-Wise, All-Holy Father. He is Love. He saves sinners, cleanses the sins of men. He is the Lord of Life and Death. He is the Light of Love that all who die meet. He is the Reviewer of Life. He is the Lord of Heaven and Hell. He is the All-Merciful. May His blessing shower us all.

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And I do repent for my sins. Have you?

If you still believe in eternal hell, then you have not repented. As for me, I try to repent every day, but I do not delude myself that a mere statement of "I'm sorry" or "I believe" constitutes genuine repentance. One must work on oneself. A deathbed conversion counts for nothing.

Demigawd · 06-11-2003, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
I don't know how anyone who could worship and revere such a conception of a beastly god.

As Winstonjen pointed out, Magus55 can comfortably hold such a belief because he believes that he will be exempt from his supposed god's righteous, eternal wrath by virtue of following the bible's method of groveling. In other words, in Magus55's world, damnation is something that happens to other people.

The arrogance of fundamentalist dogma shines through.

winstonjen · 06-11-2003, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Demigawd
:notworthy

You rock, Winstonjen. In that one sentence, you've summed up what is so odious about the fundamentalist mindset. Every fundamentalist I grew up around had this exact same outlook: "I kiss God's ass just right, and you don't. Fear my religion's l33t hellfire, infidel!"

Well, thank you very much!

It's something so simple, and yet nearly impossible for people like Magus to figure out. For further discussion of why people in different situations see things differently, see my thread on The Moral High Ground

Magus:

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And eternal torment in Hell is the only punishment fitting of a lifetime of crimes against God.

BZZZT! At the very most, a lifetime of punishment is fitting for a lifetime of crime. No more, no less.

Mageth · 06-11-2003, 04:21 PM

You could give a lifetime of punishment for each crime someone committed and it would still not be a drop in the ocean of eternity.

And the idea that those there will be tormented for their "crimes" brings up another question - Magus, would you consider it moral if, instead of just tossing criminals in jail, we tossed them into torture chambers?

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06-11-2003, 04:10 PM	#56
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	And eternal torment in Hell is the only punishment fitting of a lifetime of crimes against God. If that's god's standard, then, well, no one should consider god "holy". More like a sadistic monster. But if there is a god, I think that's more likely to be your standard than hers. Do you realize what eternity means? Do you realize that someone who (to use one of your examples of "sin") occasionally looked at Playboy would spend an infinite amount of time suffering in hell for each time they looked? That's just too screwed up a notion to make any sense at all. I don't know how anyone who could worship and revere such a conception of a beastly god. If god's real, I think she'll personally kick the ass of whoever came up with the notion she'd be mean enough to do something like that, and of those that persist in spreading that notion.

06-11-2003, 04:21 PM	#60
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	You could give a lifetime of punishment for each crime someone committed and it would still not be a drop in the ocean of eternity. And the idea that those there will be tormented for their "crimes" brings up another question - Magus, would you consider it moral if, instead of just tossing criminals in jail, we tossed them into torture chambers?

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