ju'iblex

i have yet to find one heterosexual or homosexual who has conciously decided their sexuality. But what would i know, im just the lesbian, who happens to be under the impression you never sat there and went "i think i might get myself into that heterosexuality thing!". But please, im always open.

define 'turning away', and the results of that. Please show something that suggests that this would work. Please explain how sexuality is a 'tendency'.
a) you have just equated homosexuality with promisciuty, wrong.
b) you have just compared sexuality with something that requires an external factor.

please justify both.
a) youre implying homosexuality is something flexible and fluid, ie. a choice. justify or abondon the assertion.
then why the discrimination? Why the ignorance on the subject? What do you call humble, dictating how others should live perhaps?

Explain and provide evidence for how homosexuality is a tendency, or abandon the assertion.
Your religion proposing love yet sending out bigotry makes no sense. Homosexuality and 'indulgence' are not interrelated.
love does not mean that at all. You have a pretty screwed up idea of love if you are trying to change something that should not be changed.

Bree

I would love to know how my loving, lasting,monagamous relationship with my partner is destructive and incorrect.

Captain Pedantic

I think the answer will have a lot of words about sin, some repetition on the subject of destructiveness, some quotes from the Bible, a comparison to alcoholism, maybe a link to Focus On The Family or Free To Be Me and will essentially boil down to "Because it just is, alright?"

Since the Bible has been interpreted in many different ways on this subject, it's probably fair to say that one man's interpretation is no better than anyone elses'. Thusly, it would probably stop some people (that is to say, gay people and their friends and family) from resenting the Church quite so much if gay relationships were accepted, and gay commitments encouraged.

MrDarwin

My partner and I have been together for 20 years. I am not a Christian and personally, I care not one bit whether any Christian sect endorses, supports, accepts, or even tolerates our relationship. What I do care about is how people in general, and the law in particular, treat us.

But I'm a bit curious--how is this relationship harming me? How is this relationship harming any other person? And most of all, how could it possibly be harming whatever god(s) there might be? How can one possibly harm an omnipotent being? Disobedience based on one's own judgment? Because if so, "sin" is entirely arbitrary, and based entirely on what God says it is.

Kevin, if God told you to cut off one of your fingers, or castrate yourself, would you do it? Would you be sinning if you disobeyed? What if God told you to murder your neighbor's child, or your own? Because if right and wrong, good and evil, are based entirely on the whims of a deity whose motives we cannot possibly understand, if "sin" is defined by a god who needs give no justification whatsoever for defining it as such, other than that he/she/it says so--that we are expected to do what he/she/it says, without question, for no other reason than that he/she/it told us--I'll put a bit more faith in the laws we humans manage to muddle up on our own, and I surely hope it will protect me from the actions of those who believe they are acting on God's will.

Godless Dave

But there's a big difference: habitual alcohol abuse is harmful and ultimately deadly to the abuser, and usually causes behavioral changes that are harmful to the alcoholic's family and friends.

Homosexual sex is not harmful or unhealthy.

Godless Sodomite

This is what my family doesn't really understand. My problem with the church goes far beyond its condemnation of homosexuality. They think I object to religion on the basis of its homophobic bigotry and if only the church would lighten up I'd line up to kiss the pope's ring. That's not quite true--I denounced Catholicism because I find the Abrahamic religions to be morally, emotionally, and intellectually reprehensible from The Fall all the way to Revelations. I'm not a xian so I don't really care what their position on homosexuality is as long as they don't interfere with my life. (And for the record, I didn't choose to be gay but I fail to see how that's relevant in any way. Given the choice, I would not change. If it were to magically become a choice, knowing what I know I'd choose to be gay every time--OK, what does that get us and how does that change the situation at all?)

Personally, I'd like the churches to embrace queer relationships for the sake of queer people who, for whatever reason, can't or won't abandon their faith. I'd like to see them able to exercise choices without the guilt trip (which may not be possible in the case of xianity since the entire religion is founded on a guilt trip--take away guilt and there's no reason for the religion). On the other hand, marriage in and of itself I see as a matter of social control. As an American I'm already under tremendous pressures to conform to a whole host of social rituals that I have no desire to embrace. Pressure to marry would end up being yet another way for society to define and control me. While I want to see our relationships acknowledged equally under the law, the whole concept of marriage makes me cross-eyed--I don't get it and don't want to.

-Jerry

spurly

When I woke up and read this thread this morning, I had one of those "aha" moments. You know, when the light bulb comes on over one's head in a cartoon, etc.

Here was my "aha" moment - that really should not have surprised me. When a Christian is discussing topics like this with people who do not believe in God, we are coming at the topic from two entirely different world views. As you know, in one world view there is no God, so our choices are basically left up to us and if they are dictated at all it is only by society and culture. In the other world view, God exists, and because he exists, he has the right to declare the parameters of acceptable behaviour (i.e., sin and righteousness).

Because we are coming at this topic from vastly different world views, I don't think that we will ever come to an agreement on this subject.

I believe that many people who have inclinations for vices, whatever they may be, have a choice whether or not they are going to act on those inclinations. In this instance, one could choose to be celibate, if they wanted to, and not act on their natural tendencies. Many people do that.

Sin boils down to choosing to act on impulses that go against God (of course this is coming from a Christian worldview).

Because we will never come to a concensus, I am going to bow out of this discussion now. Thanks for posting your thoughts.

Kevin

Godless Dave

But since we have no way of knowing what God considers acceptable behavior, we are left again with personal and societal values. Except some people try to give their values extra legitimacy by saying they are also God's values.

Kevin my morality can be summed up like this: if it's not hurting someone else or yourself, it's OK.

Rhea

Like going to a place where non-believers hang out? Isn't there something about not fraternizing with infidels in there? Shaking the dust, pearls before swine. I'm pretty sure those are "against God", regardless of your impulse to enjoy our company.

MrDarwin

And coming to an atheist discussion board you were expecting...???

The problem is, people with both worldviews live side-by-side in our world--we have little choice. Our society, our government, our laws and our culture have to accommodate people with all different beliefs and worldviews. How do you propose we accommodate that? On the off chance that you have not bowed out permanently, I do have a question: do you believe that the law should treat people any differently than the Bible instructs us to treat people?

Coming to these discussions helps me understand what goes on inside other people's heads. Unfortunately, I'm forced to conclude that most theists believe blindly in what they have been told and taught. And what they have been taught is that they have to follow a certain set of rules for no other reason than that God supposedly gave them that set of rules. When I question, what is the reason for such-and-such a rule, why is a certain thing a sin, I get no answer other than "God wants it that way". There is no reason, no logic to that set of rules, only that might makes right.

Meanwhile, there seems to be little agreement on just what those supernatural laws are. And since those rules seem to have changed over time, or are at least followed inconsistently (I wonder, do you follow God's laws as given in Leviticus and Deuteronomy?), I have to ask: how do you know that what you consider sin today will not be perfectly acceptable tomorrow, or a hundred or a thousand years from now? And how do you know God has not changed his/her/its mind?