MarcoPolo

Of course!!

* reasonable explanation snipped to save space *

Sounds well thought out and reasonable to me and I don't have a complaint with that.

The biggest problem though is the subjective nature of what constitutes 'ruining' someone's life.

Personal responsibility must come first and foremost.

Let me take two extremes here.

Rape victim that gets pregnant. While I believe that the life could eventually be something beautiful and productive, I couldn't complain in the least if the woman decided to get an abortion.

Prostitute gets pregnant. I have a problem with people using abortions as birth control.

One is a good excuse, the other is not.

Would you agree with that?

Puck

Of course QueenofSwords. As there are any number of perfectly good reasons a woman would choose to abort, only you can state your reasons. Not to mention that another woman's thoughts on this are welcome!

You know, this has been a good exercise for me. I've always thought of the debate in terms of someone's religous beliefs, and I find that taking out the religous aspect, my convictions are still the same, and just as strong.

Puck

What this is saying is that things begin to, start to, it's not saying that these things are fully formed. If I start to paint a picture, am I an artist? So no, it doesn't change my opinion in the least.

You wrote:
Right. But according to what you said ealier, you KNEW that a baby would ruin your life. I'm asking how could you KNOW that?

What, as I, an adult woman, you don't trust my judgment? I don't have to explain to anyone, nor should any woman, why should an adult human being justifiy what they have already well thought out? I should have to explain my motives to the womb police? Think about this, who is going to police abortions? Who has the right? Are you saying you would qualifiy to ask me my motives?

Now, for the reasons (I've finished ranting). I was an unwed teenaged mother back when it was not common. I chose to keep and raise my child by myself. She's now an adult on her own and quite frankly, I'm pooped. It was a hard life. I did a damned good job. If I was to get pregnant at this point in life, and couldn't abort, I'd have to commit suicide. I couldn't emotionally handle it. And I would be incapable of giving up that child to a stranger to raise.

There, now I've shown my most imtimate self to you. Do I qualifiy for my abortion? Will you pass your 'wiser than mine' judgement upon me? Do you see at all now just why we cannot set conditions on when it's okay for a woman to abort? It's no body else's business why!!!

The most we should do is decide when it's too late in a pregnancy to abort, except for medical reasons.It's no body else's business why!!! No woman should have to do what I just did. A huge part of me wants to delete the above, but I'm going to post it hoping that one more fellow human being will understand a little better.

[ December 13, 2002: Message edited by: Puck ]</p>

MarcoPolo

Ok. I was just basing that on your previous statement of 'mass of cells' or something like that. You would agree that a beating heart isn't just a mass of cells wouldn't you? What about the picture of the 16 week old fetus? It looked pretty human to me. What about you?

MarcoPolo

Sorry... couple more things...

Some babies are born premature with something not fully formed. What does that say about these babies?

Yes you are. As a matter of fact, you can call yourself an artist before you even start a painting. Or are you saying that you're only an artist once the painting is complete? If you're in the middle of a piece of art, you're not an artist?

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by MarcoPolo:
<strong>
Rape victim that gets pregnant. While I believe that the life could eventually be something beautiful and productive, I couldn't complain in the least if the woman decided to get an abortion.

Prostitute gets pregnant. I have a problem with people using abortions as birth control.

One is a good excuse, the other is not.

Would you agree with that?</strong>

No, because I don't like the word "excuse". I prefer "reason".

OK, on a more serious note : in the hypothetical example, is the prostitute using no form of birth control but instead getting abortions? Or is this a case of both the condom and the pill failing simultaneously? I wouldn't approve of using abortion as a form of birth control, but I still wouldn't want to lose any of my rights because some people abuse theirs.

Puck

Dang, y'all are on it today! I edited my last post and added a bunch on and while I was typing, there are already two more posts! Please re-read my last post if you wish.

MarcoPolo

That's the one part of my post I was wondering if I should change. When I reread it after I posted it, I thought the exact same thing as you! I hope by that smiley you were giving me the benefit of the doubt on that one.

I think we agree more than you know.

I'm basically here just to discuss and learn (not necessarily in that order!) I'm not here to try and prove my agenda or anything. If I've given off that notion, then I apologize.

I appreciate the conversation!

Puck

MarcoPolo, heart cells taken from adult humans will still 'beat' all on their own. If you start breaking down things that much, then you get into the whole sperm are living things and shouldn't be wasted. Let's not nit pick that much, huh?

I didn't look at any pictures, I went to the link quickly, scanned the article, re-read what you posted from it and went from there. At four months, though, it ought to start looking like a human being if it is a human fetus, that's what devoloping things do, start looking like their species.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Puck:
<strong>I would be incapable of giving up that child to a stranger to raise. </strong>

I'm not convinced that giving a child up always or even nearly always results in a good life for that child. Are the child welfare agencies capable of screening prospective parents adequately? After reading about the Lisa Steinberg case, where an adopted girl was killed, I know I'd worry about the same thing happening to any child of mine that was given away - yet I know I don't have the time or energy to nurture a child. The safest thing to do, in my situation, is not to have one, ever, and if that means having an abortion when birth control fails, so be it. Feel free to comment on personal responsibility here, Elaborate.