contracycle

Hmm, well, thats all we are ever going to have, so lets make the best of it.

I think the hostility to "the mob" denotes an underlying hostility to democracy. I am reminded of the Roman Equites disdain for the hoi polloi, and the frequency which they backed the "enlightened" ruling classes of other polities against their ruled populaces. Criticism of "the mob" seems to me to be identical to the claim that nobody but I, and those who agree with me, are sane, and the opinions of rest can be discarded.

But not only is this arrogant, it is useless. We are social beings in organised societies - observe the detritus of 6000 years of temple-building and construction, of artifical and intellectually constructed societies divorced from the direct struggle with impassive nature for survival. Our instinctive behaviours are shot through with social cues and subtextual messages to others. We are social organisms and SOCIAL THEORY premised on the Heroic Iconoclast appears to me to have little relvance to actual lived human lives.

Why not? With global communications and travel speeds, you are more my neighbour than someone in the next town would have been a hundred years ago.

Nonsense, this argument is internally inconsistent. If it is true that the feature of the primitive commune that made it functional was the proximity of its members, then the matter at hand is an organisational, practical one, not one located in the moral consciousness of humans.

That does not sound like a perfect system to me, becuase I can imagine no scenario in which any group - even a small one - could all be of one mind with any regularity. conflicts of opinion are inherent in a social structure and a social structure contains mechanisms for mediating those conflicts - must do so or disintegrate. The question, again, is not how we can make better people (who all thik the Right Things) but how we can make a better society.

I think it might be more preferable to explore practical dimensions of what might provoke such a response, rather tha the bald assumption of the irrationality of the mob.

I'm always amused by these claims. They remind me of the Creationist assertion that since Einstein rewrote Newton, physics is demonstrably Wrong. It does not work like that.


I would argue that the alienation arises from the mode of production employed within the society, rather than arising inherently as a property of human interaction. It is thus a solvable problem.

JERDOG

Of coarse not your an admitted socialist. No socialist is going to admit or think that they are not liberty minded. The fact that they think they are is why they are so dangerous.

There is nothing wrong with community when you trade ideas, values and learn from one another. That is NOT SOCIALISM. But that is exactly what is touted as socialism by the ones who promote it, conveniently forgetting to mention that you are an expendable part of a group and can be disposed of for the "betterment of the group" if need be. That person who is disposed by the group for the group, what rights did he have?NONE. Socialism is evil and the fact that the promoters of it try to sugar coat it as love for your brother next door should throw up a huge warning sign to people.


Well then point out a large fully socialist nation that you would just love to move to. Just one.

JERDOG

I just realized that socialist use a different definition of the word "freedom".

By freedom a socialist means freedom from having to support yourself.
Freedom from having personal responsibility.
Freedom from having to use your mind.

They have this fairy tale idea that their can be a society where no one has to put any effort into doing anything. That everything will be provided to you so long as you sacrifice yourself to the group.

contracycle

Naturally. And equally, no capitalist will ever admit, even to themselves, that their agenda is authoritarian and the gross instutionalisation of theft. The fact that they think that is what makes them so dangerous.

Alarmist and ignorant rant mostly snipped. There is no "love your brother" here. I'm just tired of having all my hard work stolen by lazy capitalists. All this fuzzy emotionalism attributed to Socialism only as misdirection, considering that socialism outright rejects any such sentimental considerations in the fomraiton of policy.

And quite obviously, the fact that the first heavier than air flying machine built didn't fly conclusively proved that heavier than air flight was impossible, didn't it? So I must have imagined all the times I have flown.

JERDOG, you clearly have no familiarity with the arguments for socialism (or anarchism); your rejection is knee jerk, based on a bunch of spurious Western propaganda (to which Rand contributed greatly) and outright ignorance. I would advise you to extend your reading, but I doubt that you will.

contracycle

Did you? Or is that just the knee jerk reactionary frothing away?

LOL. Oh no, that would be capitalism. We work, they profit.
Freedom is working for YOURSELF, not some other lazy bastard.

Oh not at all; thats why capitalism needs a police force to carry out violence against the citizen. Freedom is taking responsibility for your society as a direct and personal one.

That would ceetainly be a capualist aspiration, becuase god knows they don;t lkike it when the G8 protestors use their minds, and employ the police to show us the error of our ways. Freedom is thinking, expressing, doing.

I see. That must be a very different socialism to the one that I am familiar with, you know, the one which Marx described. Which socialism is it that you are familiar with? The one you found up your rectum?

JERDOG

Wow that was real intellectual of you! Rectum. yea.
I am familiar with the ones that have existed in reality.

I want you to explain to me EXACTLY how the "big evil capitalist companies" take your "hard earned money" step by step.
And IF you successfully do that I will then explain to you how socialism and government control was and still is used to unfairly benefit some companies. That is hardly capitalism.

So you believe that what you earn is yours and no one else's?

And I'm going to ask again. Name me one fully socialist nation in which you would pack your bags and move to right away.
I don't need a bio on the Wright brothers. I would like a straight up answer.

Cain

I see this thread has almost doubled in posts since I last checked. Jerdog, these are weak criticisms -- not even criticisms in fact.

First, the links provided on the critiques of libertarianism page do not cater to your specific "liberty-minded" or even atheistic views. The range of opinions vary from newspaper articles to an in depth refutation by a professional philosopher. The accusation of socialism is a red-herring, and not worth replying to in the context in which it was introduced.

There are stronger proponents of laissez-faire capitalism (Robert Nozick comes to mind). And better arguments for egoism (Libertarian thinker Jan Narveson is one example).

As a matter of honest debate, it's silly to put "big evil capitalist companies" in quotes because it implies, contrary to immediately examinable record, that someone in fact used those exact words, which they didn't of course.

It's usually a good idea to, I dunno, define your terms in a manner acceptable to both sides. Clearly this does not suffice:

That's utter nonsense. Third-rate propaganda. The word socialism, not unlike the words capitalism and atheism, has been grossly perverted over time. But please, consult almost any dictionary and you'll still find something resemebling the intended definition: a system where workers own and control the means of production themselves. Essentially democracy in the work place. Or, if you like, the people who work in the steel mills ought to own the steel mills.

In a capitalistic economy there are imbalances in power. The means of production here are primarily owned by the few (i.e. capitalists) and workers, since they lack property (i.e. the means of production), they're compelled (by market forces) to sell their labor power. Do you think any company or employer pays dollar for dollar exactly what you create? Of course not, they'd all go out of business. Marxist exploitation, if we insist on bringing Marx into the discussion, points to stolen surplus labor value (and alienation of labor, and other more complicated subjects that I do not pretend to fully understand). Marx turned the labor theory of value against the first proponents of capitalism (Ricardo, Smith). Apologists for capitalism revised their stance and now advocate a subjectivist theory of value (what you earn is what the market decides). Rand, it should be pointed out, in all her shallowness, has a problem with the word "subjectivist." I've heard people say that Von Mises eventually dismissed her as misunderstanding everything he's ever written.

JERDOG

Realy..?

"MEANS OF PRODUCTION CONTROLLED BY THE STATE!"

Gee I wonder what gave them the idea to "pervert" the definition like so?

OHhh thats right, the socialism you imagine in your head is not like that.

But the socialism Marx talked about was not like that!

BUT..

BUT..

BUT..


I was refering to this quote.

I see that this fellow obviously believes that what he earns is HIS. And I totaly agree with him! Seems like a hands off capitalism kinda guy to me.
That is why I asked HIM to articulate exactly how it is these evil capitalist are doing such. No vaugnes please. No parelles drawn about the dynamics of flight. Step by step so we can all understand, Thanks.


And in your dream world everyone is the captain of industry! Everyone is wealthy and happy!
And the streets are linned with candy canes and no one has to go to work!

So we should just let government have all the property?
Oh wait that's the "perverted" definition.

OH nooo they have to support themself! What a pitty!

And then no one would have a job and they would all starve becaue some greedy workers thought that they should have an equal portion of the pie of the ones who took chances and sacrafices to start a busnises.

"So what you took a chance , made a loan that you was unsure you would be able to pay back or not. Put your house up for collateral and you kids college fund. So what you took a chance and stated a busnises that abled me to have a job! I Joe Smoe should reap just as much benifit as you! It doesnt matter that I didnt take any chance. I am ENTITLED to what you have! ITS NOT FAIR!!!!!!!!!!!"




So ZMA what total socialist nation past or present do you wish the entire world was like?

JGL53

I agree with everything JERDOG says, yet I've never voted for a Republican in my life, and I think George, Jr. and most Republicans are dangerous assholes.

So - I know what you guys are, but what am I?

JERDOG

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh I know your not implying that I'm a republiscam are you?
Negatron Batman.