DMB

Theists generally believe that we don't own ourselves: god does, and only god has the right to decide how and when we shall die. As an atheist, I don't think that anyone else owns my life.

I am not sure how much what is being discussed here is about morality and how much it is about law. Morality is better able to accommodate shading than law, which usually requires fairly well defined rules.

So if we are talking about law, I would suggest that anyone who is legally adult should have the right to decide to die. Essentially, all adults are normally equal before the law, and it seems to me obvious that the elderly, few of whom approach the end of their lives in a state that the young would recognise as healthy, ought to have the right to call it a day. (I hope it is also obvious that they should not be subject to pressures from others to end their lives.) Difficulties of all sorts arise when the would-be suicide is physically incapable of realising his/her wish without help.

Morally speaking, however, there are big differences between the suicides of a) young, temporarily depressed people, b) chronically ill adults with dependants, c) terminally ill people of any age, d) the very aged who have simply had enough.

Suicide is nearly always painful for those left behind. I would suggest that anyone contemplating suicide needs to consider the effect it will have on their nearest and dearest. This is a moral requirement. In particular, if one has dependent children, I would say one is behaving extremely badly towards them in shuffling off one's responsibilities and taking one's own life. Suicide is often seen as a very selfish action, and it can be if one simply ignores its effects on others.

There is also a question of whether the would-be suicide is failing in some duty to society. Some people who oppose the legalisation of euthanasia for the terminally ill argue against it almost entirely on these grounds. Personally, I don't buy this argument, but it is a serious one that is held by some atheists.

The reason most of us don't want to stand by and let the attempted suicide of a young, physically healthy but depressed adult succeed is because we know that in most cases people who are rescued from such attempts and properly treated can go on to lead happy and fruitful lives. As atheists, we think that you only get one shot at life and it is a terrible waste to throw it away. Ultimately, however, if such a person is not helped sufficiently by therapy and over a period of several years maintains a wish to die and continues to make serious suicide attempts, I would not feel justified in continuing to intervene.

I believe that we should do our best to help our fellow humans realise their potential and should give them various kinds of support if they are ill, but that ultimately we need also to respect their personal autonomy, however hard that may be.

winstonjen

Individual rights should take precedence in the cases of the terminally ill. Take this example.

Which of these hypothetical scenarios is better?

Scenario 1) Euthanasia is legal. I have terminal AIDS, and I want to end my pain because it has gotten too bad. I am peacefully put to sleep, and my family and friends support my right to choose.

Scenario 2) Euthanasia is illegal, the way it is now. I have terminal AIDS, same as in scenario 1. But I know that in my state, I can get the lethal injection if I get sentenced to death. So, long before I would have died of AIDS, I go out an murder scores of people. I may commit suicide by cop, I might not, but I do know that I can get a much more peaceful death this way.

case

I support euthanasia, and an individual's right to choose, but I think you might be taking this argument to the extreme. Wouldn't it be more likely that most people would commit suicide in a quieter fashion, rather than go out in a blaze of glory? I would hope that an individual's right to decide is based on it's own merits, rather than on how it might harm others.

Sabine Grant

I agree that suicide implicates considering the effects on the loved ones " left behind" Often the loved ones carry guilt as " I could have prevented it"... " I was not worthy enough in his or her life to give them a motivation to live on".

There is a vast difference between a person undertaking suicide as he faces circumstances he cannot modify ( such as a terminal illness) and a person who thinks he cannot handle the circumstances and nothing will modify them. The state of mind of the second person can be modified thru proper counseling and nurturing responses from family and friends.

In so many cases of teen age suicides, the family is not necessarly aware that their son or daughter is being depressed and discouraged by circumstances. The common pamphlets put out to prevent teen age suicides list symptoms to watch for. They also apply to adults. I believe those suicides are preventable and we need to pay more attention to the state of mind of a friend or relative. Often as the circumstances are relieved, the same person does not consider suicide as the only way to escape pain.

In terms of suicide or the desire to terminate one's own life when it comes to terminaly ill patients, here are a few measures already in place which protect their right to do so.

Living Wills : if written before any illness which may lead to a state of comatose or extensive brain damage which percludes the ability from the patient to communicate his or her will, they are not the product of a depressive state of mind. They will protect the right for an individual to choose what kind of life support measures they wish to have or not have if faced by an illness which requires such measures.

Take ALS for example... at some point of time the patient will experience the inability to breathe on his own. The mind remains intact. By specifying in a Living Will that he will not want to be life supported on a ventilator, the patient expresses that he wishes not to live past that stage. It does implicate though that he will experience more and more frequent episodes of suffocation until the heart gives in. The Living Will can be a useful tool for anyone to choose when they will die as they face an illness.

DNR orders: most of my patients have them posted in their homes.Again it reflects the legal right for a person to be allowed to die by declining any life ressuscitation measures. Some of my folks are simply old . They just do not see the point of extending their lives.

Euthanasia is supposed to be a measure of mercy. I think that legislature should be in place to allow people to plan ahead of time as they have full mental capacity to request euthanasia given all the circumstances they may face. Maybe include it in a Living Will. It needs to be a medicaly informed request. With adequate counseling. People's level of endurance to pain vary. Some terminal illnesses or medical conditions ( such as for a quadriphlegic) do not necessarly involve physical pain but mental and emotional pain.All circumstances need to be explored to give each person the right to decide for their own euthanasia.

I think that we are on the right path to insure that no person will ever face the obligation to endure pain without any chance of recovery.We are also on the right path to prevent circumstancial suicides. There are alternatives to such suicides.

I abide to the belief that no decisions should be made as we undergo emotional stress.The ability to reason a way out of the stress is alterated and often results in the last resort measure " I want to die".

Someone mentionned the individual who goes out with a last act of " glory" ie gunning down a few other people and hoping to be shot by a cop or shooting himself after he perpetuated his act. Rare but still possible. In France we had such an act commited last year. The man walked into a town hall and gunned down several members ofthe city counsel. Before he could shoot himself, he was apprehended. After his arrest, he still found a way to end his life by jumping out of the 5 th floor window of the police station where he was interrogated. He had left a note in which he blamed the system for his dysfunctional life and expressed his desire to end his own while taking out those he blamed.

However it could have been prevented. The police had on records that this man had been subjected to various psychiatric treatments and ignored those facts as they gave him a permit to own a weapon. His close friend related how he often expressed rage about the "system" and " he was going to do something about that system". He was known in the school he taught at as a man who was often moody and depressed. His mother commented after that tragedy that she knew he wanted to die.

It could have been prevented.

Being a christian I want to clarify that it is not the notion that only God owns my life that has kept me from ever considering suicide as the last resort. It is the thought of the pain I would have inflicted on those who love me and consider me as I am as a person who is valuable in their lives. In that sense I define suicide as selfish if we bypass the value we have and contribution we can still make to humanity.If we invest in partaking in mankind's various endeavors, the self centeredness of " I am not worth anything " disappears.

Sorry for the long post but there is so much to express about suicide and euthanasia.

winstonjen

Yes, I agree, but the people left behind should also consider whether they are causing the person pain by asking them to live.

The example I gave there was an example of someone who wanted to get revenge on the law, and in doing so, perverted the justice system.

Krieger

I think everyone should have the right to end their life - irregardless of what the circumstances are.

winstonjen

True, we never asked for life in the first place.

However, I also believe that people have the right to prevent suicides if they feel there is a good chance of recovery from depression (or if depression is present).

Sabine Grant

Hello Krieger!

What do you think of collective suicide such as the tragedy of the Jim Jones'cult?

excreationist

Davo:

I guess it makes sense to try and to prevent suicide in young people if euthanasia was legalized. There would be a high chance of them recovering from their emotional pain (though they might still have occasional relapses). But on the other hand, doctors would be able to tell whether painful medical conditions are likely to stop or not. And the chances may be very, very slim. I think a major reason why the sick can be suicidal is because of emotional reasons as well - e.g. low self-esteem or feeling they've lost their "dignity" (I think that involves a loss of self-esteem).

The thing is that the euthanasia/suicide debate can involve deciding who must be forced to live and who can be given the choice to die.

If never-ending physical pain is a good reason for suicide or euthanasia, then what about those who are in a lot of pain and are young? Perhaps their life expectancy also is a factor.

And what about old people? Should suicide be prevented in the elderly with as much vigor as in the young?

winstonjen

Yes, but this should be attempted by giving them reasons to live, not making them feel guilty.