lpetrich

Mibby, haven't you ever wondered?

It depends on what one counts as "human"; ps418 was likely referring to Homo erectus and some earlier species, like the recent finds in Dmanisi.

That is correct. Both macroscopic-feature detail and molecular family trees agree that our species is closest to the Old World monkeys and apes; here's a list of what's closest:

Chimpanzees
Gorilla (very close)
Orangutan
Gibbons and siamangs (lesser apes)
Old World monkeys
New World monkeys

That's right -- I've never seen a feline family tree which traces present-day mountain lions (cougars, pumas, ...) to sabertoothed felines. The sabertooths were adapted to eating megafauna like elephants and rhinos; their big upper canines could penetrate the thick skins of such prey. So when the megafauna went extinct, the sabertooths joined them.

So what? The present-day position is completely independent of anything de Acosta had ever said.

And how was all this "known"? Details, please.

One thing known to have happened in Europe: conquest. The languages of southwestern Europe are now all Romance langauges, descendants of Latin, thanx to the efforts of the Roman Legions, with only one exception: Basque. However, in past centuries, there were many other languages spoken in that area, like Continental Celtic dialects, Oscan, Umbrian, Faliscan, Etruscan, etc. Likewise, around 1500 years ago, Germanic had spread from where Denmark meets Germany to much of northern Europe. Germanic tribes also spread to southern Europe, but they were less successful in conquering it, and they became assimilated into the local populations, leaving behind such evidence of their travels as the western-Romance words for "north", "east", "south", and "west".

Looking back further, there is evidence of the invasion of Europe by speakers of early Indo-European dialects starting about 6000-5500 years ago; this has left all of Europe speaking Indo-European languages except for holdouts like Basque and later invaders like Finnish and Hungarian.

There is some evidence of similar migrations in North America, such as the spread of Na-Dene and Algonquian-Ritwan, but these were not quite as comprehensive as those in Europe, most likely from the technology not being as advanced.

ps418

I found some great articles at the library on Beringia and the population of the Americas. I'll be reading these at work this week. I've started reading the Dixon paper, and it looks really good. I am very greatful to Mibby for provoking a closer look.

<a href="http://www.gsajournals.org/gsaonline/?request=get-abstract&issn=0091-7613&volume=028&issue=02&page=0099" target="_blank">Fedje, Daryl W., Heiner Josenhans, 2000: Drowned forests and archaeology on the continental shelf of British Columbia, Canada. Geology: Vol. 28, No. 2, pp. 99–102.</a>

<a href="http://www.elsevier.com/gej-ng/10/28/48/40/24/51/abstract.html" target="_blank">Patricia A. Heiser and James J. Roush, Pleistocene glaciations in Chukotka, Russia: , Quaternary Science Reviews 20 (1-3) (2001) pp. 393-404</a>

<a href="http://www.elsevier.com/gej-ng/10/28/48/40/24/44/abstract.html" target="_blank">E. James Dixon, Human colonization of the Americas: timing, technology and process, Quaternary Science Reviews 20 (1-3) (2001) pp. 277-299</a>

<a href="http://www.elsevier.com/gej-ng/10/28/48/40/24/27/abstract.html" target="_blank">Charles A. Repenning, Beringian climate during intercontinental dispersal: a mouse eye view, Quaternary Science Reviews 20 (1-3) (2001) pp. 25-40</a>

<a href="http://www.elsevier.com/gej-ng/10/28/48/40/24/32/abstract.html" target="_blank">A.V. Alfimov and D.I. Berman, Beringian climate during the Late Pleistocene and Holocene, Quaternary Science Reviews 20 (1-3) (2001) pp. 127-134</a>

<a href="http://www.elsevier.com/gej-ng/10/28/48/40/24/47/abstract.html" target="_blank">Louie Marincovich, Jr. and Andrey Y. Gladenkov, New evidence for the age of Bering Strait, Quaternary Science Reviews 20 (1-3) (2001) pp. 329-335</a>

<a href="http://www.elsevier.com/gej-ng/10/28/48/40/24/46/abstract.html" target="_blank">David R. Yesner, Human dispersal into interior Alaska: antecedent conditions, mode of colonization, and adaptations, Quaternary Science Reviews 20 (1-3) (2001) pp. 315-327</a>

<a href="http://www.elsevier.com/gej-ng/10/28/48/41/28/27/abstract.html" target="_blank">Daniel H. Mann and Thomas D. Hamilton, Late pleistocene and holocene paleoenvironments of the North Pacific Coast, Quaternary Science Reviews 14 (5) (1995) pp. 449-471</a>

Patrick

mibby529

Here's a challenge: Use the technology of 12kya and scale the Alaskan and Siberian mountains.

He NEVER says anything about prayer.

We've already proved a connection between Africa and South America.

Also, there is a such thing as a boat, you know.

That's an existential argument. I'm not debating the meaning of life.

I for one prefer to live in the present.

Ah, but the "scientific" ones admit they have no evidence.

Experience. Conjecture. Common sense. You know, the things that scientists are supposed to use?

Ones that no one can read b/c we don't all have passwords.

Mageth

Ah, but the "scientific" ones admit they have no evidence.

I'd be interested in seeing where any proponents of the Land Bridge migration theory "admit they have no evidence."

Mageth

Ones that no one can read b/c we don't all have passwords.

The abstracts themselves are interesting. And any of us could join, if so inclined. Of course, since you're sure all the authors admit they "have no evidence" anyway, what's the point?

ps418

Yes, Africa and South America once were contiguous as part of Gondwana. North America, south America and Africa were continguous as Pangea. These direct connections ceased to exist <a href="http://museum.gov.ns.ca/fossils/geol/globe.htm" target="_blank">when the Atlantic opened</a>, ~90-70 million years ago, and are irrelevant to the discussion. Obviously, the only plausible way for humans to have entered NA in the Pleistocene would be through Eurasia.

The Lone Ranger

There are entire books written on this subject! Go to any decent college or university library and check for yourself.


I "admit" no such thing. There's no evidence whatsoever to support such a bizaare view. And what, pray tell, did the mammoths and mastodons and rhinos that lived here until only a few thousand years ago "evolve into"?

Now you're just making things up.




It's not hard to find such evidence. Go look through some archaeological journals while you're in the library.

Palynological studies in the American Southwest in areas occupied by the Anasazi, for instance, show that the area was occupied by forests which gradually disappeared as people came to occupy the area. Dendrochronological studies of the timber used to shore up the pueblo dwellings indicate that the people had to go further and further to get their wood, apparently because they logged out the nearby forests.




Everyone knows what hunting a species to extinction will do. That doesn't seem to have stopped people from doing it anyway.




Now you're re-writing our posts for us?




Um . . . they do.




Prior to contact with Europeans, the Inuits did just that. They don't seem to find it too difficult to navigate through the Wrangell Mountains. In any event, the archaeological evidence suggests that the ancestors of the Native Americans migrated along the coasts, not through the mountains.


Really? References, please. Surely you're not talking about the breakup of Pangaea, which happened tens of millions of years before any member of the genus Homo existed?




Really? We keep giving you evidence, and yet you keep ignoring it. Insisting that the evidence doesn't exist doesn't make it go away.




As a means of last resort, one could always go to the library. As a rule, they're quite happy to let people look through their journals.

Cheers,

Michael

[ August 20, 2002: Message edited by: The Lone Ranger ]</p>

mibby529

It's only "likely." The "evidence" is hardly proof. The challenge to scale the Alaskan and Siberian mountains still stands.

Anyway, "scientists" along the time of the land bridge theory also believed in craniometry, anthropometry, graphology, metoscopy, creationism, and physiognomy.

So far all you've done is ad hoc hypotheses. Since no one could scale the mountains, you've decided on a coastal migration. Since there are Indian skeletons before the alleged bridge, you believe there was a pre-Indian migration.

Vorkosigan

It's only "likely." The "evidence" is hardly proof. The challenge to scale the Alaskan and Siberian mountains still stands.

mibby, I know you're not going to tell us how the north americans got here. So what is your point? This isn't the first time you've done this; others have spotted you on other forums making the same unsupported allegations and the same ad hominems. Why do you keep doing that? Fundamental science can change only one way: by evidence.

There is only one way you can change our minds, and that is to provide the actual evidence for your thesis that the North American aborigenes originated there and then migrated out to Asia. That would include linguistic and DNA studies, archaeological evidence, and other data. All evidence indicates that the current population is of relatively recent origin, less than 50,000 years.

Nobody here is prejudiced. I think I speak for the whole board when I say that everyone would love to see a cogent argument, backed by wide-ranging evidence from many different fields, that human habitation in North America is much older than everyone thinks. That would be science at its finest -- exciting, awesome, thought-provoking. We'd stand up and cheer.

But mibby, you are not providing this. You are deriding us and what the rest of the world thinks is solid science, yet providing neither cogent argument, nor marshalling evidence. In your next post, can you put up some real evidence that supports your idea that the aboriginals are the ancestral population for current Asians rather than vice versa?

Vorkosigan

scombrid

Right on Vorkosigan.

OK, we've postulated a coastal route. There is evidence of habitation on well below the current sea level. You choose to ignore that evidence. Ps418's links are a start. If false, why? . Rewording your challenge: Use the technology of 12kya and cross either the Pacific or the Atlantic.

What is this "medicine" with which they manipulate the weather? Incantations to manipulate the weather are just as ludicrous as dripping pigeon blood on somebody to cure leprosy.


Evidence of a crossing?

12kya they couldn't climb mountains but they had vessels capable of crossing an ocean? Evidence?

[ August 21, 2002: Message edited by: scombrid ]</p>