Autonemesis

Not having an answer does not compel us to fill in the blank with anything, or to assign mystical properties to what we don't know. I mean, I agree with you that humans can't know all there is to know. Appreciating and acknowledging the limitations and fallibility of knowledge and perception encourages me agree strongly that between credulity and skepticism, the latter is least likely to lead to error.

Correct. That is why it is classed as a popular science book, rather than as a refereed journal. It's intended to appeal to the imagination, that's why it was written imaginatively.

A3

rainbow walking
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The religion-is-everything side I also partly agree with because it is the only approach that gives life its purpose. I don’t know about you but I don’t like doing anything purposeless or pointless and an existence that ends totally at death, especially if before the age of 30, is then pointless.
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Rw: Only if one lives ones life without a purpose created by himself.
A3: That’s why I mentioned 30 because very few know what they want to do before that age and often are not even married yet, or again.
Rw: What purpose does it serve to live ones life as chattel of an incomprehensible god?
A3: Who says God is incomprehensible? If you read Swedenborg’s Divine Love and Wisdom it all tends to fall into place. And I mean ALL
Rw: Besides, isn't desiring eternal life as selfish as wanting to extend ones life in this world?
A3: That all depends what that desire is based on. If it is to serve mankind longer and better there is nothing selfish about it. And that is the essence of heaven, to be usefull to others.
Rw: Xians pretend that it is a virtue to become a believer when, in reality, without these promises of rewards beyond the grave, they'd never give theism a second glance.
A3: You are probably right about many people, the “Sunday 11-12" Christians. Just being a believer does absolutely nothing, it is the life that saves us. The quality of the after-life however is not a reward but a condition we bring upon ourselves in the here and now.
Rw: People who sell out there lives in this life for un-provable rewards in an unverifiable after-life are guilty of abandoning themselves and their fellow humans for selfish motives.
A3: That depends on the real motive and only God and usually the person knows. To give you an idea what we think the after life is all about I’ll include the contents of S. book Heaven and Hell (1758). (BTW it is free for the asking).
Please keep in mind the words: “Heaven cannot be seen, it is within you.”
Part 1. Heaven
[Author’s Preface]
The Lord is God of Heaven
The Lord’s Divine Nature Makes Heaven
The Lord’s Divine Nature in Heaven is Love for Him and Charity towards the Neighbor
Heaven Is Divided into Two Kingdoms
There Are Three Heavens
The Heavens Are Made Up of Countless Communities
Each Community Is a Heaven in Smaller Form and Each Angel a Heaven in Smallest Form
The Whole Heaven, as a Single Entity, Reflects a Single Individual
Each Community in the Heavens Resembles a Single Individual Therefore Every Angel Is in Perfect Human Form
It Is Owing to the Lord’s Divine Human That Heaven, in Its Entirety and in Its Parts, Reflects a Person
There Is a Correspondence of Everything in Heaven with Everything in the Human Being
There Is a Correspondence of Heaven with Everything on Earth
The Sun in Heaven
Light and Warmth in Heaven
The Four Quarters in Heaven
How the States of Angels in Heaven Change
Time in Heaven
Representations and Appearances in Heaven
The Clothes Angels Appear In
Angels’ Homes and Houses
Space in Heaven
Heaven’s Form, Which Determines How People Associate and Communicate
The Forms of Government in Heaven
Divine Worship in Heaven
The Power of Heaven’s Angels
The Language of Angels
How Angels Talk with Us
Written Materials in Heaven
The Wisdom of Heaven’s Angels
The State of Innocence of Angels in Heaven
The State of Peace in Heaven
The Union of Heaven with the Human Race
Heaven’s Union with Us through the Word
Heaven and Hell Come from the Human Race
Non-Christians, or People outside the Church, in Heaven
Children in Heaven
Wise and Simple People in Heaven
References to Passages Concerning Different Types of Knowledge
Rich and Poor People in Heaven
Marriages in Heaven
What Angels Do in Heaven
Heavenly Joy and Happiness
The Vastness of Heaven
Part 2. The World of Spirits and Our State After Death
What the World of Spirits Is
Each of Us Is Inwardly a Spirit
Our Revival from the Dead and Entry into Eternal Life
After Death, We Are in a Complete Human Form
After Death, We Enjoy Every Sense, Memory, Thought and Affection We Had in the World: We Leave Nothing Behind except Our Earthly Body
Our Nature after Death Depends on the Kind of Life We Led in the World
After Death, the Pleasures of Everyone’s Life Are Turned into Things That Correspond with them
Our First State after Death
Our Second State after Death
Our Third State after Death, Which Is a State of Instruction for People Who Are Entering Heaven
No One Enters Heaven on the Basis of Mercy Alone
It Is Not So Hard to Lead a Heaven-Bound Life as People Think It Is
Part 3 Hell
The Lord Governs the Hells
The Lord Does Not Cast Anyone into Hell: Spirits do this Themselves
All the People Who Are in the Hells Are Absorbed in Evils and Consequent Falsities Because of Their Love for Themselves and the World
Hellfire and Gnashing of Teeth
The Malice and Unspeakable Skills of Hellish Spirits
The Appearance, Situation, and Number of the Hells
The Equilibrium between Heaven and Hell
Our Freedom Depends on the Balance between Heaven and Hell
ISBN (library) 0-87785-475-0
ISBN (paperback)0-87785-476-9

Have a good weekend
Adriaan

David Mathews

Hello Ryanfire,

David: Easily. An omnipotent and omniscient God can create anything He wishes.

David: The love an omniscient and omnipotent being cannot help but be greater than human love. The anger of an omniscient and omnipotent God cannot help but be greater than any human anger.

David: Exactly. This is what God has done.

David: If God was like us He would be comprehensible.

David: If you are looking for God like yourself you are just like a dog chasing his own tail. God is not like humans in any way.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

Theli

A3, what was the point with your post above?
It was just rhetoric, strawmen and evasive arguments. With a poem on the end, that bears no truthvalue. All neatly wrapped up, and disquised as truth.

[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: Theli ]</p>

Ryanfire

Hi David,

The bible says god created us in his own image. But he is not human in any way.

Is this another allegory?

You obviously have your own ideas of what god is and do not follow the christian god.

Sure your basis of god comes from the christian concepts, but you have slapped your own ideas on top of them.

[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: Ryanfire ]</p>

Theli

David...

I've been wondering about this myself.
God's omniscience could not have helped him when precieving/inventing/designing the universe, since the universe didn't exist yet. He didn't know how it was going to look.
His omnipotence can only create what he can percieve/imagine. The info/design must have come from somewhere.

Pointless rhetoric.
1. More knowledge doesn't increase the impact of feelings.
2. You have no way of measuring/comparing emotions, so this remains a hollow guess.

The problem still stays. You can't refute it nor explain it by avoiding this issue.
P1 - God is incomprehensible.
P2 - You know/comprehend things about god.
C - One of these premises are false.

Ryanfire

Oh but rainbow... aren't you supposed to ask god for your purpose? There's no point in you defining your own purpose.

Why even bother with science, medicine, or hospitals? To theists, we're nothing but a plague(humans hopelessly depraved) in the scheme of existence. But funny how plagues(the hopelessly depraved) must meet certain criteria(a set of rules) in order to be classified a plague(human).

That is why humans don't matter to theists, god knows what to do with plagues. For that matter, humans do as well... so lets kill each other and get it over with.

This is the only solution that can come from all of religion. I don't want to see humanity perish on the account of some f*cking stupid *ss beliefs.

You said it friend.

"Religion sells humanity to buy god."

I firmly believe that is all religion can do for this world. With all the wars and terrorism it just goes to show Religion will never be rich enough to pay their bills. So let the slaughters and killings continue.

Pomp

Theli,

With a poem on the end, that bears no truthvalue.

Actually, that's not a poem. It's the Table of Contents from Emanuel Swedenborg's Heaven and Hell, first published in 1758, the full text of which can be found <a href="http://swedenborg.newearth.org/hh/" target="_blank">here</a>.

AJ, I'd be interested to know your purpose in posting that.

Edited for horrendous grammar.

[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: Pompous Bastard ]</p>

A3

Thank you Pompous Bastard

This somehow doesn't sound as nice as I intended it
All this arguing goes to show, if people take the Bible literaly it seperates.
Take the Bible allegorically and it unites.
The literal story of the Israelites is of their daily struggles with all the blood sweat and tears. The internal sense is the maturing of a people (or individual) to come close to God.

Regards
Adriaan