Jayhawker Soule

No.

CX

I have to disagree with reasonable doubt here and say there is depending on what you mean. Mashiach is a word that means anointed. Anointing was a common ritual practiced in ancient Israel so lots of biblical characters are referred to with that term. Jewish messianism on the other hand anticipates a specific historical figure who will be a human being, will come from the house of David, who will be a military leader, who will restore Israel, reestablish the Temple in Jerusalem and signal the advent of the Kingdom of God on earth. Messiah with a capital "M" refers to that person, whereas, messiah with a small "m" is just a word referring to a common practice. Throughout the history of Israel many individuals have claimed to be the messiah (or had those claims made for them by their followers). None of them has passed the test though because they failed to accomplish what the Messiah (capital "M") is supposed to accomplish.

Greg2003

Cyrus didn't claim to be the messiah, Isaiah said he was. Also, Hebrew doesn't use big Ms or little ms. So I don't think that distinction matters. Additionally, Cyrus really was the saviour of the jews. He restored them to israel and built them a temple (or rebuilt it, if you believe the jewish version about a first temple).

I come more and more to the position that Cyrus had much of the OT written to make him look like the hero and the jews look like they had to worship a single Zoroastrian type God in order to be connected to the heroic and holy history that he constructed for them. In exchange for which he got their loyalty. It may not be the right theory, but it sounds awfully compelling to me.

Jayhawker Soule

There is no sense in which the 'M'essiah is somehow better thean the 'm'essiah. The covenant is the covenant. If the last guy didn't get it done, it may well have been that the Israelites did 'what was wrong in the eyes of YHWH' and must, therefore, wait for the next Davidic King. Hopefully, by that time, they will have learned their lesson.

The point to be made here is that, while there are extremes in every religion, I suspect that the Jewish 'M|m'essiah is a typically more down-to-earth (read 'anthropomorphic') concept than Messianic Christianity.

Greg2003

Comments from Reasonable or anybody on Magee's linguistic assumptions? For instance, he says that Zerubabbel and Ezra are both related to Zara, persian for sun or savior, and, of course, part of Zarathustra or Zoroaster. He also draws lots of other linguistic connections like this, but never cites a linguistics sourse to support that all these languages are borrowing from each other in the way he indicates. Any comments?

Jayhawker Soule

I haven't a clue, but I find the assumptions underwhelming. I suspect that the whole damn area was a linguistic potpourri for quite some time.

CX

You're missing the point. I used capital versus small "m" to try to give a an example that is sensible in English. The word "messiah" is not equivalent to THE messiah the Jews are waiting for. I don't know how else to explain it. Cyrus was not of the House of David nor even an Israelite. Ask any Jew and that is a requirement for THE messiah. That is precisely why GMt makes such a point of providing the genealogy.

THE messiah for the Jews is supposed to be a descendent of David, a human being, an anointed king and military leader who will restore the people of Israel to the land of Israel and reestablish the Jerusalem Temple which in turn will begin the Kingdom of God on earth. It IS much less spooky than the Jesus version.

Michael Ledo

Her is what Michael Ledo wrote on the topic in Bible Bloopers:

Zoroaster
“Critics also tend to use exaggeration and over-simplification in order to parallel Christianity and the mystery cults.”
–Josh McDowell


As briefly mentioned in the “Heaven” chapter, the Zoroastrian religion played an important part in establishing Christian eschatology. Zoroaster is credited with the founding of the religion. Some texts read Zarathustra, which is the more correct name for Zoroaster. Zarathustra became Zoroaster thanks to a combination of Greek and Roman translators.
 
Zoroaster is legendary. Aristotle claims he lived 6000 years before Plato. Berosus, a Babylonian historian, claims he was the founding king over Babylon in 2200 B.C. Another story claims Zarathustra Spitama (family surname) lived circa 3000 B.C. He was a mighty intellect and produced a monotheistic religion with one god, Ahuramazda, equated to Jehovah. He was blasted as an atheist and blasphemer by his contemporaries.

His home was in Bactria, Asia, a country between the Oxus River and the Caucasian Mountains. Scholars independently believe the ancient Sumerian-Babylonian civilization was founded by people from this region. This is the real home of the Aryan race. Contrary to popular belief, Germans are not Aryans. One of the nomadic tribes abandoned pastoral wandering and opted for agriculture. This led to war between the factions as the farmers were easy prey. During this time Zoroaster appeared, denounced the old gods, and established a new belief based on a natural spiritual religious creed. Zoroaster was born of the virgin, Dukdaub. During his time of pre-existence he dwelt with god and seven archangels. At thirty he was baptized into his ministry in the waters of the Daitih. His religion was based on the natural conflict of light and darkness, of sunshine and storm transformed into a battle of good and evil.

 Ahuramazda is “the Creator of the earthly and spiritual life.” He is “wisdom and intellect” and “the source of light,” “the rewarder of the virtuous and punisher of the wicked.” Zoroaster taught the immortality of the soul, resurrection, heaven, and hell. Heaven was called a “house of hymns” because angels sang hymns there. He also predicted future millennial saviors.

 Later the monotheism idea got corrupted when evil in the world could not be explained with only one god. So god developed an alter ego, who did all these bad things. The bad gods were known as “Daevas” or devils when they became part of Christian mythology. Zoroaster was tempted by “the Maker of Evil.” He was promised by this devil that he could be “the ruler of nations” if he would “renounce the good religion” (Mt. 4:8). Ahuramazda, like Jehovah, had sacred names. One was called “ahmi yat ahmi,” I am who I am. Compare that to Jehovah in Exodus 3:14, “Ehyeh asher Ehyeh,” “I AM THAT I AM,” or even the modern sea-god Popeye, “I yam whats I yam and that’s all whats I yam.”
 
The Zoroastrian timetable places the coming of their Messiah, Soshan (or Saoshyant), in 2341 A.D. Armageddon and Last Judgment occur in 2398. The New Heaven and Earth will finally arrive in 2400. Another difference between Christianity and this older savior-god religion is their main god, Ahuramazda, is not all powerful and everywhere. This is why he can not conquer evil, unlike the Christian god who can, but does not. In the Zoroastrian end time saga, a virgin will bring forth a savior, or world messiah. He will begin his ministry at age thirty. He will live to be fifty seven years old. There will be signs for the end times. All men will become deceivers. There will be frightful storms. There will be signs in the moon and sun, there will be wars and rumors of wars and earthquakes. Great battles will be fought with many dead. Father and son will hate each other; mother against daughter. The sacred ceremonies will be scorned (compare Mt. 24:6-11).
 
The final Battle of Good and Evil will be fought in Iran. The Devil’s army will march into the Holy Land (Iran) from the north (where hell is located). In Revelation, Israel will be invaded by Gog and Magog (Rev. 20:8) which symbolize some unidentified nation of the north from which Satan’s army will originate. The great fiend Azi Dahak, long imprisoned in the infernal pit, is now released (compare Rev. 20:7). There will be rivers of blood that reach the girth of horses (compare Rev. 8:8, 11:6). The devil rules for a year and a half during which one third of all mankind, sheep, cattle, and creatures die. He smites the water, fire, and vegetation (compare Rev. 8:7-12). A great meteor will fall to earth. The earth will become as a sheep fallen upon by a wolf. Fire and the angel of fire will melt the metals in hell, which will flow like a river on earth (compare Rev. 8:11). Then the messiah, Saoshyant, arrives from the region of the dawn and defeats the bad gods by using “the Word.” Saoshyant becomes “the incarnate Word” or the “Holy Word.”

Afterwards there is a final resurrection and judgment. The good are separated from the evil. They cross the Kinvad bridge. The good pass freely into paradise. The evil fall off the bridge as it narrows into the fiery hell. The earth burns up and becomes purified (from the meteor). A eucharist will be prepared for men to eat by which they will become immortal. They will receive again their own wives and children. They will be in spirit form, so there will be no more begetting (compare Mark 12:25).
 
What did Christianity plagiarize from Zoroastrianism? Personal and vivid concepts of hell, water baptism for purification, virgin born savior god, demon exorcism, universal judgment, metaphysical dualism, the Logos or Word, transformation into spirits, the millennial kingdom, the defeat of Satan, the rebirth of the universe with Heaven moved to Earth, seven as a mystical number, and the concept of purgatory to name a few. This religion is still practiced in Iran.