Polycarp

Quote:

Originally posted by Anunnaki: Just because 90% of society ignorantly believe the "truthfulness" of theism does NOT in any way make it any more a reality than Star Trek. My point was that theres no difference between the bible and Star Trek. They both contain fictitious plot lines and should serve no other purpose in our society other than pure entertainment. Although I`d hardly call Christianity entertaining...well OK,some of the apologetics and illogical reasoning as well as the bickering between the different sects can be quite entertaining to watch.

So should the government subsidize these institutions or not? I’m still not sure where you stand. Originally, you seemed to be against the idea and I’d like you to clarify it. Are you recanting now?

There are virtually no topics free from debate at institutes of higher learning. Physics, philosophy, literature, business management, etc are all seen from different perspectives by experts in the field. You’re putting theology in a separate category by saying that the government should only subsidize the (a)theological view with which you agree. This hardly seems to be the actions of someone prone to encouraging the free exercise of thought and expression.

Anunnaki

I agree and I`m sorry for the confusion. As I said last night in <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=44&t=000103" target="_blank">this</a> thread....

Anunnaki

You`re right. I do put theology in a seperate category from physics, philosophy, literature, business management, etc. In other words I have removed theology from legitmate fields of study that have shown to be benificial to society.
I do not find the guessing,hoping and out right lying of religion to be in any way benificial.

Freedom of thought and expression is fine and dandy,but thoughts and expressions such as those of religious believers that tend to hault the progress of mankind rather than assist it,should not be funded in any way with secular tax dollars.
There are more than enough private schools, revival tents,churches and bible study groups for this type of "education' if you choose to take that path.


If the far out biblical tales were to be discussed and viewed the same way as Greek mythology is in these institutions I`d have no problem with it,but that does not seem to be the case.
It`s not what category I have put theology into but rather what category theology refuses to put the bible into that is the problem IMO.

The definition of theology from Websters...
"The science of God or of religion; the science which treats of the existence, character, and attributes of God, his laws and government, the doctrines we are to believe, and the duties we are to practice; divinity; (as more commonly understood) ``the knowledge derivable from the Scriptures, the systematic exhibition of revealed truth, the science of Christian faith and life.''

the doctrines we are to believe, and the duties we are to practice

Until the answer to the above query is NONE, I will continue to insist that the use of tax dollars be haulted.

&lt;edited to add the Websters definition&gt;

[ January 22, 2002: Message edited by: Anunnaki ]</p>

Vorkosigan

What sort of subsidies do they get? That might go far to answering whether they should receive subsidies.

Michael

Toto

When Universities started getting lots of government grants in the 60's (or did it start in the 50's?), they had to redefine themselves as predominantly secular institutions, which most of them were happy to do, even if they had been founded as religious schools.

Most of these grants were for science, medicine, etc. There might have been some indirect subsidy of the theology department as well as the Classics department, but no direct subsidy for theology.

The Pope's recent move to force Catholic-related Universities to only hire theologians with the Vatican's seal of approval has caused some of the Catholic institutions to worry about their government grants.

Students, on the other hand, would be eligible for whatever student aid is generally available, since it would not do to discriminate against students preparing for a religious career, vs. a legal career.

Someone who has been around a University more recently than I should have better information. If my tax dollars financed Metacrock's theology studies, I might have to - - well, at least write my Senator about the waste of government funds.

Polycarp

Quote:

Originally posted by Anunnaki: You`re right. I do put theology in a seperate category from physics, philosophy, literature, business management, etc. In other words I have removed theology from legitmate fields of study that have shown to be benificial to society. I do not find the guessing,hoping and out right lying of religion to be in any way benificial.

Theology has been beneficial to society. Do you have any idea how many schools and hospitals have been founded by religious organizations? Every field of study has people “guessing, hoping, and outright lying”. Religion is not alone in this regard. Therefore, this argument is pointless.

Quote:

Freedom of thought and expression is fine and dandy,but thoughts and expressions such as those of religious believers that tend to hault the progress of mankind rather than assist it,should not be funded in any way with secular tax dollars. There are more than enough private schools, revival tents,churches and bible study groups for this type of "education' if you choose to take that path.

OK. So are you saying Duke, Princeton, and Harvard should be forced to close their divinity schools in order to receive money? How ‘bout philosophy classes in secular institutions? No teacher should be allowed to mention the possibility of god’s existence, or else it might be promoting “theology”. We’d have to cut funding for those schools, too. I don’t see where you could draw the line. What about “religious believers” who are professors? Are you going to ban them from teaching at secular universities? If you say no government money for these institutions, then it would seem you’d be against financial aid for students attending these schools. Toto summarized the situation well. Please clarify how you will determine which schools should still get aid, or how you would distinguish which schools I could attend and still receive financial aid.

Quote:

If the far out biblical tales were to be discussed and viewed the same way as Greek mythology is in these institutions I`d have no problem with it,but that does not seem to be the case. It`s not what category I have put theology into but rather what category theology refuses to put the bible into that is the problem IMO. The definition of theology from Websters... "The science of God or of religion; the science which treats of the existence, character, and attributes of God, his laws and government, the doctrines we are to believe, and the duties we are to practice; divinity; (as more commonly understood) ``the knowledge derivable from the Scriptures, the systematic exhibition of revealed truth, the science of Christian faith and life.'' the doctrines we are to believe, and the duties we are to practice Until the answer to the above query is NONE, I will continue to insist that the use of tax dollars be haulted.

You’re apparently unaware that the biblical tales are viewed and discussed in the same way as Greek mythology by some professors in some of these institutions. Again, it seems like you’re as close-minded as the fundamentalists you oppose. You’ll only allow the government to support your view. This is quite telling. Do you see this? In the majority of these schools, you’re not told what doctrines to believe or duties to practice. The different views are presented and you choose what you want to do and believe. Of course, there are exceptions to this.

Professors of all subjects tell their students what to believe and do. You’re not making a point by claiming theology is alone in this regard because it’s simply false. What medical instructor doesn’t tell a student what to do in diagnosing an illness? What business professor doesn’t try to instill a set of beliefs in her student on how to run a successful company? What basketball coach doesn’t tell his players how to run their team’s offense? I hope you can begin to see the double standard you’re using.

I wonder what your response would be if a bunch of Christians demanded all atheistic teachings be removed from public colleges. We’d be hearing about Hitler, Constantine, the Crusades, and every other debacle of the last 2000 years.

RyanS2

I don't see a problem with theology in general, (the study of God). It might appear on some levels to be tautology here, (we cannot prove Gods existence, therefore how do we study that which we cannot prove), but then again, we have lots of meta-physics we can't "absolutely" prove either, they merely are a set of symbols and equations which the theory proves, but if you ask for a more concrete definition than that, (dark energy/dark mass?) you will just get what borders on metaphysical speculation. Likewise with theology, most of it is just questions which they can only answer when they put "God" into the equation. (What caused the Sun to be here? Why does the Earth rotate precisely where it needs to be? If Hydrogen atoms were 5% denser... ad infinitum).

Can theology be taught as a science? Depends. Winston's College Dictionary: "Science: A body of knowledge, general truths of particular facts, obtained and shown to be correct by accurate observation and thinking; knowledge condensced, arranged and systemized, with references to general truths and laws".

Whether the BELIEF in a God is harmful or not is debateable. The belief in CERTAIN DOCTRINES of a GOD thing is, with few exceptions, been a bad thing, but that does not mean the total belief in a God is bad. This is letting the pendalum swing too far in the other direction.

"If my tax dollars financed Metacrock's theology studies"

Judging by his writing, I seriously doubt that MetaCrock has been to any serious institutes of higher learning on the subject of theology. But what's so bad about that? Maybe he could also take a class on "fallacy arguments" and learn when and how they are applied?

Polycarp

Quote:

Originally posted by turtonm: What sort of subsidies do they get? That might go far to answering whether they should receive subsidies.

Toto described it fairly. Let’s make it simple and focus on government financial aid for students. Here’s a story to illustrate…

I’m going to graduate from high school in the spring, and I've already been accepted at two colleges: Notre Dame (private, religious school) and the University of Wisconsin (public, secular school). I’m still undecided on a major, but am considering religion, philosophy, or biology. All three majors are available at both schools, so there are six possibilities (2 schools X 3 majors). I can major in Christian studies at both schools, and since I’m a Christian this is a distinct possibility. Should my choice of schools and/or majors be a factor in whether I get financial aid?

I’d love to hear from a bunch of people on this.

Toto

Metacrock claims to have attended a seminary and to have a masters degree, and he claims to have or be in the process of getting a PhD in the History of Ideas. That's why he can heap abuse on the rest of us, who lack his formal training.

I think this is getting off topic, but the whole thread has little to do with BC&A. I will start a thread to continue this in Church State Separation.

Toto

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=59&t=000037" target="_blank">Go here to continue this</a>