Loren Pechtel

He's going way too far.

We were pretty much born rich.

Also, Hong Kong isn't a fair comparison, it's a mercantile nation and in no way self-sufficient nor can it ever be.

Also, I don't see that foreign aid props up the dictators much.

Once you get past these flaws, though, he does have a point. Poverty is *FAR* more a factor of the local government than the actions of outside powers.

The various advantages that he neglected about America do *NOT* apply to Europe.

Much of Africa has a big handicap called the teesee (sp?) fly--there's no draft animals in most of Africa. However, this isn't a problem in Asia nor the portion of Africa above the Sahara.

What's the one big difference--governments.

Aerion

Those are a couple of interesting points about Africa I've never thought of before. I've often pondered why Europe and China raced ahead of the rest of the world technologically. The draft animal observation could be part of the explanation. Thanks, Loren!

Gurdur

Do you really believe what you've just written ?

You seriously think there's some kind of genetic difference to being "hardworking, industrious and adeventurous" ?

I really look forward to your reply on this, Aerion.

Nonsense. The rise to might of the USA is very simple to explain --- a huge amount of (stolen) land, most of it neo-European in climate, lots of good agricultural land and water, homogenous society, easy trade routes.

Also, there was freedom from disease, parasites and crop rusts, moulds and fungi to a large degree.
______________

Correct.
Tsetse fly.
But you've left out the real killers ---- yellow fever, riverworm, bilharzia (shistomanisitis), and above all malaria. Most of these affect livestock as well as humans.

There's also the question of sheer geography and climate, which made easy trade routes within Africa an impossibility till recently.
Also, lack of much good agricultural land and water.
A gross over-simplification --- it's history, bad luck, climate, disease (malaria is still the no. 1 killer after HIV), and some governments.

elwoodblues

I wouldn't be hugely skeptical of this. I don't buy it myself, but there's plenty about how genetics affects demeanor that we don't know.

But it's really a moot point. The immigrants had to be more determined than the average population, sharing traits that enabled them to emmigrate across an ocean. That may not necessarily affect the gene pool, but it'll certainly hit the culture hard and broad, which is maybe even more important.

Hold up. I agree with your other points, but 'homogenous soceity'? Far as I can see, one of the US's most fundamental characteristics is it's non-homogeniety, because we're a nation of immigrants. Racially, religously, and culturally. Compared to Asia and even Europe, it becomes even more obvious.

Celsus

Ok, I'll bite.

Straw man. It is not "absolutely necessary". There are many, many other factors glossed over by making such a statement--he simply engages in question begging by calling it "foreign-aid handouts".Non-existant establishment of correlation, causation and isolating important factors. The difference is that Europe and America did not have anyone on top of them to dictate prices, control markets, create political havoc or wield monopolies on their developing industry. This factor is completely ignored of course, and since it's ignored, we can't isolate the impact of foreign aid.
Cart and horse. The issue of governance in the developing world is something that the West is at fault for to begin with. They supported despots and unaccountability during the Cold War so as to counter the "Communist threat". Reading the ideals of democratically-elected African leaders (usually a few years before they were shot in coups or forced to flee) is both inspiring and tragic. Countries that did remain relatively democratic (e.g. Senegal, Ghana until Rawlings, C�te-d'Ivoire) have all done consistently better than the other nations. Of course, the other obstacle is in international economic relations, where any attempts at stepping up the commodity chain have been thwarted by TRIPs and economic cartels. Aid was often tied to the ability of strongmen to fight communist support through violence, torture and coercion. Interestingly, Israel and Egypt are the US' largest recipients of foreign-aid handouts. I wonder what Mr. Williams would say about that?
Again, an inability to isolate factors, selective use of examples, and straw man reasoning. Overpopulation makes the poverty cycle worse, but does not depend on absolute population density, but on the carrying capacity of the land. In a highly industrialised country like Hong Kong, which trades for most of its food produce, it is not overpopulated. Such a basic and silly error leads one to wonder about the motives of Mr. Williams. Of course, his selective examples enable him to superficially make his point.
More superficial analysis. Trade does have knock on effects, but the "trickle down" theory is both ethically ugly and misguided. If he was happy for MLK Jr. to beg for the crumbs from white government, then perhaps he will see the contradiction. The developed nations want to set up trade as unevenly as possible. All those WTO and GATT conferences are about making the developed nations get the best possible deal from trade negotiations, so as to have an "incentive" to trade with poorer countries. This is bullshit. Even if the poor countries got twice their purchasing power, there would still be incentive for the developed countries to trade. Hence, while there is some "trickling down" of wealth, it is not on account of the goodwill or inherent benefits of trade, but because the developing countries have constantly fought for better terms, and consensus decision-making policies have usually forced those horrible "foreign-aid handouts" to be given out eventually, so that bills could be passed. Guess what happened to them when dictators got it?
The second point ignored by this reasoning is that reverse engineering, especially in East Asia, has led to a lot of its competitiveness in electronics. Remember all those cheaper electronics you bought that were "Made in Taiwan" as if that were a bad thing? These all borrowed and in some cases improved on existing designs, but they needed the loopholes to begin with. As far as TRIPs is concerned, countries that benefit from greater TRIP regulation have gone with it, and those who didn't benefit, generally ignored it. Hence the East Asian Tigers are still lagging far behind Europe in TRIP enforcement, simply because they still have much to gain from it. Poor countries have so far either not circumvented TRIPs or have been forced to abandon their attempts, most notably Latin America in shoe, leather and ARV manufacturing. The rules are weighted against the poor, even if trade does trickle down a few benefits.
Yes, let's blame the victims. Always productive to blame the victims.
Again, more rubbish and selective reasoning. Has he forgotten that the US was largely responsible for most of the dictators they set up in the Third World? They consistently worked against democracy, accountability, human rights and popular movements for the duration of the Cold War, and now that it's over, we blame the poor countries for not having strong institutions? Sheer hypocrisy.

Joel

Zar

I'm not sure that this little article and argument from authority accomplished what you say at all, but more or less listed a series of views on the situation that are no doubt held by some and that many feel quite justified in. This is no particualr breakthrough or mystery. Not that this is a problem in any way -- after all, people of all persuasions regularly regurgitate cursory summaries of their views -- but neither is it a resounding victory for anyone in particular, so I'm not sure all the gloating will have any effect on anyone. In particular, those who believe the world is more divided by class than by ethnicity would be totally unaffected by this man's being black.

But since you seem to think this guy has "laid the smack down" for your corner of the intellectual world in a mere few paragraphs of generalizations... Yay for your "side", then, I guess. There's probably not a lot anyone can say to burst your bubble in that case.

Gurdur

Argument from ignorance is a fallacy, Elwood.
And you've never seen African women working in fields (they work bloody hard), so be caeful about assigning laziness to entire genetic groups.
Leading to the culture of cocaine-snorting yuppies in Florida ?
Oh Elwood, some day I must buy you a plane ticket to Europe and force you to live there for 6 months, man.

1) The USA is extremely homogenous compared to all other comparable geographical masses -

• language
• meta-culture (yeh, sure, you got miinority cultures --- but you have one great big culture most in the USA share
• easy trade and transportation routes
• no great geographical barriers (even the Rockies and the deserts of Utah etc. hardly measure up to the Urals and the Gobi)
• resulting in a super-large, tightly entwined, economy of now 280 million people.
  You really need no supernatural explanations for this.

2) Europe has a great many immigrants and minority cultures, for crissakes.

Germany --- population of 80 million, foreigner population of over 4 and a half million ---- not counting immigrants, who are included in the 80 million.
The UK ? Take a look in NottingHill sometime. Huge Indian communities in Bradfield and elsewhere. Jamaican, Barabados; Nigerian, etc. etc.
Italy --- very large Algerian and African communities.
France ---- ditto, but more so.

etc.

Aerion

Damn, there you go again, Gurdur. Elwood NEVER said anything about lazy anybody. For that matter, neither did anyone else? I'd even call it inflamatory that you would suggest he said such a thing! Are you making shit up as you go along again and presenting it as fact?



And we need to buy you a plane ticket to the United States and force you to live here for a while.




What about Russia, Australia, the Middle East or China? These are fairly large land masses with fairly homogenous mixes. The United States has been absorbing new cultures into its mix its entire history. Is this one little point so damned important to you that you have do devote all this to it?

Gurdur

Aerion,

Please reply to the question !
Do you think there are population gentical differences in "industriousness" etc. ?

Gurdur

Compare with:

Do answer my question put to you before, Aerion, and stop the personal attacks.