Bilboe

First to HRG,

My point was that Gandhi was a much more credible witness. If he said he performed a miracle, I would be inclined to believe him, based on his moral character. But both you and Hans raise a good point.

Now to both Hans and HRG,

Since I believe in demons, I think there can be evil supernatural events. I would put demon possessions under this category. Can demons produce good miracles, such as healing a deaf and dumb man -- which is how the religious leaders of Jesus' day said he was able to do it? (They said this, because it was generally believed that before one could cast out a demon, one had to get the demon to speak its name. Since a dumb man couldn't speak, it was thought one couldn't cast out his demon. Therefore, since the leaders thought Jesus was evil, they had to come up with an explanation of how he did it). Jesus answer was that Satan would not cast out Satan, lest he destroy his own house. Further, he warned them against blaspheming against the Holy Spirit. From the context, it appears this is a warning not to call evil something which is obviously good.

However, I don't think this will convince either one of you. If I understand your argument, both of you are saying that even if we knew the New Testament accurately recorded the words and deeds of Jesus, this wouldn't be enough evidence to make you believe in Him. I'm no longer sure how to answer your challenge, Hans. I feel like I'm arguing with a solipsist who wants me to prove to him that I exist. Other than kicking him in the shins until he withdraws his challenge, I wouldn't know how to do so. Would you?

HRG

But that was not the question, since Gandhi in the hypothetical example was not the perceiver of miracles, but their origin - and the perception was somebody else's.
BTW, I'm also Hans, with -Richard tacked on .

Actually, my claim is different:
Even if the NT accurately recorded the perceptions of those present at the alleged words and deeds of Jesus, this would only be evidence that something supernatural *)happened, but not that Jesus actually performed miracles.

*) e.g. a massive bending of photons by the action of Loki

Regards,
HRG.

Hans

Bilboe



I understand your frustration. I suppose it is a psuedo-solipsist position. The position that even where a supernatural being is pressumed one is incapable of deducing the true nature of the supernatural being. But unlike a purely solipsist position where nothing but the self can be known I can argue confidently that the world of the supernatural is completely beyond my experience. Therefore, duping me regarding the true nature of a supernatural existance would be effortless.

Best wishes.

Christoph

If you deny the existence of God, there is really no reason to live. There is no purpose. Evolution, if you believe it, does away with any need for purpose. We may invent purpose, but how can that matter? A cosmic accident presumes to give itself purpose? We are an accident. We are here for no reason. We may say we are here for our kids. We may also say the sun is here to warm the earth. Of course that's not why the sun is here. There's no reason for the sun to be here. It's coincidence that it provides a service for us. If we presume to appoint a purpose for ourselves it's a pretty pathetic and useless purpose because there really is no universal goal.

I really can't understand why an atheist can say life has purpose. Please clarify that for me.

Goliath

Cristoph,

First of all, in case you weren't aware, atheism has absolutely nothing to do with denying gods. An atheist is one who does not believe in any god whatsoever. I cannot deny that which I don't believe exists.

Since I am an atheist and have a plethora of reasons for living, I am a living counterexample to your claim. Therefore you are demonstrably wrong.

Again, I and the people and things I care about give purpose to my life. Again, you are demonstrably wrong.

The answer consists mostly of a word that is in your question: because it's a purpose.


First of all, I make no claim to being a "cosmic accident," and secondly, we not only presume to give ourselves purpose, but we do so.

Why should there be some grandiose, universal purpose of life? Why should it matter to me? What difference would it make in my life?

Absolutely none. I am in no need of a "universal goal." IMO, people who need some kind of "universal goal" and grandiose purpose to get by in life are--in your words--"pretty pathetic."

As I said above, it's unbelievably simple. Ready?

1. Give purpose to your life.

2. Live your life.

Sincerely,

Goliath

(Edited for clarity)

[ April 08, 2002: Message edited by: Goliath ]</p>

Christoph

You're changing the context of the question into one that is way easier to answer. However, something you said was interesting. You claim to be an atheist, but say that you never claimed that you were a cosmic accident. Do you mean that, even without purpose, man is still not an accident? I hope not.

Goliath

Cristoph,

How so?

No, Cristoph, I merely do not make the claim that man is a "cosmic accident" (whatever that means, exactly).

I always attempt to say exactly what I mean. So, if I say that I never made the claim that man is a "cosmic accident," then I mean just that--that I never made the claim that man is a "cosmic accident.

Note that I never claimed that man wasn't a "cosmic accident," either.

By the way, I've reposted my reply above to the thread that you just started. You can either reply to this reply here or in the new thread.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Mageth

If you deny the existence of God, there is really no reason to live. There is no purpose. Evolution, if you believe it, does away with any need for purpose. We may invent purpose, but how can that matter? A cosmic accident presumes to give itself purpose? We are an accident. We are here for no reason. We may say we are here for our kids. We may also say the sun is here to warm the earth. Of course that's not why the sun is here. There's no reason for the sun to be here. It's coincidence that it provides a service for us. If we presume to appoint a purpose for ourselves it's a pretty pathetic and useless purpose because there really is no universal goal.
I really can't understand why an atheist can say life has purpose. Please clarify that for me.

Goliath eloquently answered your question. I'll second everything he said. And yes, there really is no "universal goal." We all need to learn that.

I'll add that there is more purpose to this life, IMO, in my life as an Atheist than there was in my former life as a christian. From a xian theological view, this life is only a "warm-up" for an eternal life, and at least according to some one could totally fritter this life away and make a deathbed confession to gain the "universal goal" of eternal life. I've known many xians who expressed a desire to get this life over as quickly as possible so that they can enter the eternal kingdom sooner rather than later ("Even so, come quickly, Lord Jesus"). As an atheist I know that this life is all I've got, so I'd better enjoy it while it lasts and make the best of it I can.