Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jet Grind · 05-15-2003, 05:57 PM

Darth Dane, seriously, are actually here for intellectual discourse or are you just trying to irritate us?

Duck! · 05-15-2003, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whispers
Just wondering aloud here....

To those that have always been atheist or agnostic, have you ever wondered why you cannot see or feel god? I was thinking about this on the way to work this morning, and my thoughts went like this....

Maybe they cant see/feel god because they are not looking for him. Or they are looking in the wrong way...ie looking to see if he is there as a "test".

Was the promise not...."seek and ye shall find"??

This theory does not fit with a Christian that did find god and then de-converted. Not sure what the bible would say about that

I've never really bought into this line of thinking. There's no end of things that I might find if I seek them. However, I'm only human and I have a finite amount of time on my hands and I have to decide what's a worthy use of that time. Seeking for something I'm pretty sure doesn't exist sounds like a waste of time.

Duck!

Conchobar · 05-15-2003, 06:48 PM

I did search for God through prayer, Bible reading, pastoral counselling, many years of being taught by nuns and monks. I wanted to believe but my brain could never process that data.

I don't think that any of us choose to believe anything. You believe that the Rocky Mountains exist because you and every person with eyesight can see them. You don't choose to believe that they exist as you stand at the Lodge at Lake Louise. You don't choose to believe that you are tired after working 10 hours without a break. You can't see Atoms and protons but you know they exist because of the abundant scientific data, the secondary results of chemical reactions etc. You know atoms are real, you don't choose to believe in atoms.

You don't believe in cubical spheres, the square root of minus one, or that a snail can play Lord Gordon's Reel on a fiddle. You know that those are not possible by any natural law. You don't believe them; you don't choose to not believe.

God is in a different category. He is invisible, inaudible, intangible, and non-tactile to our investigation. But so is outer space dark matter. He is or is not the creator of the universe. If he is such a creator you don't know if he is sentient (conscious) and intelligent, or on a level different from human mentality. As a result some people believe and others do not. It might seem to you like choice; but I can tell you it is not. If it were simple choice, I would have been a believer since childhood.

My life would have been far nicer if I could have honestly identified as a believer. There is no advantage anywhere in being a non-believer, only varying degrees of negative social stigma.

So here is my biography. I did spend years wrestling with the question of God's existence. I was taught standard Christian (Irish Catholic) theology. I studied the bible and had as I said, taken a theology elective in Biblical Studies and Exegesis in each of my four years at university. I had counselling with our local priest. I did this because I "wanted" to believe. I tried to choose to believe but it just wouldn't stick. Now as I note a few grey hairs among my formerly solid black mane, I note my approaching mortality. I want to be "right". So I try to find a reason, even an excuse to believe in God and have immortality. That is a very desirable situation.

An Atheist believes that at death, all is over forever. That is not very pleasant. So I am motivated to find that I am wrong. I know that my elder years would be nicer if I looked forward to an afterlife and a good afterlife.

So, when I die, I may not have not yet found the key data to convince me that God is real. Then I am face to face with God. Everyone tells me that it is too late then to say, "Corblimey, you are real."

Do I get an "A" for effort at trying hard to believe, but failed the final exam because I couldn't programme it into my brain?

This leads me to conclude that the brain has to have the necessary hardware and circuit systems that process religious concepts as plausible and correct (what we call belief). If my brain either has a rigourous rational filter that rejects all that is not strictly logical, I may be incapable of belief in spite of my desire to believe. Perhaps I lack a religious module that you have, and therefore I am unable to formulate a believable processing of information on God and religion.

I have a good appetite. I generally like anything on my plate. But on a visit to America, I tasted sauer kraut. It was disgusting. I almost threw up. I tried twice more but just could not make myself swallow it. I didn�t choose to not like it, my taste system and olfactory brain did. I was embarrassed for insulting my host�s cooking.

This hopefully sums up my ideas about the brain. I don�t think there is any �we� who control our brain. I think �we� are our brain. It chooses what we do and think.

Conchobar

BadBadBad · 05-16-2003, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darth Dane
I want to know what you found instead of God

I found exactly what you find when you walk outside. Trees, grass, cars, buildings, but no God.

Mageth · 05-16-2003, 09:39 AM

Jesus was a fool eh? A fool doesn't Know right? Ignorance is Bliss?

The wise man knows he doesn't know everything, probably doesn't know much of anything, and for damn sure doesn't claim he has the "whole truth" or that such is attainable.

If Jesus claimed to know the "whole truth", and claimed that that truth was the answer to the ultimate "why" question, then he was mistaken. I'm not convinced he claimed to know the whole truth, so I'm not ready to personally label him a fool. Personally, I think his teaching was more along the lines of attaining self-realization and a life of peace and joy rather than illuminating an answer to the "why" question. One can attain those things without knowing, or requiring, a "reason" answer to the "why" question. In fact, realizing that the why question is pointless, that there is no ultimate, knowable answer to "why", is an imortant step to understanding and coming to peace with yourself and your brief life in this universe.

bocajeff · 05-16-2003, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whispers
Maybe they cant see/feel god because they are not looking for him. Or they are looking in the wrong way...ie looking to see if he is there as a "test".

Was the promise not...."seek and ye shall find"??

Which God should I go looking for? There are alot out there.

ElectEngr · 05-16-2003, 01:28 PM

Quote:

I searched the world over
and thought I found true love.
You met another and
phhssssttt, you were gone

--- Hee Haw

Later,
ElectEngr

Mageth · 05-16-2003, 01:32 PM

Which God should I go looking for? There are alot out there.

Since when is zero a lot?

Oh, I get it. You mean god-myths. And there's lots of mythical gods that I wouldn't particularly want to find.

Darth Dane · 05-16-2003, 04:39 PM

The wise man knows he doesn't know everything, probably doesn't know much of anything, and for damn sure doesn't claim he has the "whole truth" or that such is attainable.

I don't either, but it would be nice to know if it was possible to know, no?

If Jesus claimed to know the "whole truth", and claimed that that truth was the answer to the ultimate "why" question, then he was mistaken. I'm not convinced he claimed to know the whole truth, so I'm not ready to personally label him a fool.

I agree, Jesus said he was One with his father, but not equal.

Not equal to God = not the whole Truth

One with God = One in essense?

Personally, I think his teaching was more along the lines of attaining self-realization and a life of peace and joy rather than illuminating an answer to the "why" question. One can attain those things without knowing, or requiring, a "reason" answer to the "why" question.

Yes, the story from buddha about the arrow and the man who got hit's demand to know who and why he was shoot, before being treated from the injury. Stay in the living moment, not in the past where "Why's" dwell.

In fact, realizing that the why question is pointless, that there is no ultimate, knowable answer to "why", is an imortant step to understanding and coming to peace with yourself and your brief life in this universe.

Yes, but if we are one in essense, our essense will be carried by God at all times as an example of how to live, so taht others may learn from your mistakes?

Nice thought eh?

DD - Love Spliff

JEST2ASK · 05-16-2003, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Conchobar
I did search for God through prayer, Bible reading, pastoral counselling, many years of being taught by nuns and monks. I wanted to believe but my brain could never process that data.
<<< SKIP>>>

I don't think that any of us choose to believe anything.
God is in a different category. He is invisible, inaudible, intangible, and non-tactile to our investigation. But so is outer space dark matter. He is or is not the creator of the universe. If he is such a creator you don't know if he is sentient (conscious) and intelligent, or on a level different from human mentality. As a result some people believe and others do not.

It might seem to you like choice; but I can tell you it is not. If it were simple choice, I would have been a believer since childhood.

My life would have been far nicer if I could have honestly identified as a believer. There is no advantage anywhere in being a non-believer, only varying degrees of negative social stigma.

So here is my biography. I did spend years wrestling with the question of God's existence. I was taught standard Christian (Irish Catholic) theology. I studied the bible and had as I said, taken a theology elective in Biblical Studies and Exegesis in each of my four years at university. I had counselling with our local priest. I did this because I "wanted" to believe. I tried to choose to believe but it just wouldn't stick.

<<< SKIP>>>

So I try to find a reason, even an excuse to believe in God and have immortality. That is a very desirable situation.

An Atheist believes that at death, all is over forever. That is not very pleasant. So I am motivated to find that I am wrong. I know that my elder years would be nicer if I looked forward to an afterlife and a good afterlife.

So, when I die, I may not have not yet found the key data to convince me that God is real. Then I am face to face with God. Everyone tells me that it is too late then to say, "Corblimey, you are real."

Do I get an "A" for effort at trying hard to believe, but failed the final exam because I couldn't programme it into my brain?

This leads me to conclude that the brain has to have the necessary hardware and circuit systems that process religious concepts as plausible and correct (what we call belief). If my brain either has a rigourous rational filter that rejects all that is not strictly logical, I may be incapable of belief in spite of my desire to believe. Perhaps I lack a religious module that you have, and therefore I am unable to formulate a believable processing of information on God and religion.

<<<< SKIP>>>>

This hopefully sums up my ideas about the brain. I don�t think there is any �we� who control our brain. I think �we� are our brain. It chooses what we do and think.

Conchobar

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :

I am sure it is bad form but excuse me ......

I was hoping someone with better skills would respond to this maybe everyone else has seen this (or similair) before but it blew me away .... as it reflects so much of my outlook....

***So, when I die, I may not have not yet found the key data to convince me that God is real. Then I am face to face with God. Everyone tells me that it is too late then to say, "Corblimey, you are real."

Do I get an "A" for effort at trying hard to believe, but failed the final exam because I couldn't programme it into my brain?

while I have seen / heard some say that it is possible for non-believers to get to heaven ... (& the Calvinist who say no-way) ....

That really brings into question (for me) the whole issue of mercy / justice / love etc

and a closing (((( Conchobar )))))

:notworthy :notworthy :

05-15-2003, 06:48 PM	#23
Conchobar Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Emain Macha, Uladh Posts: 176	Seek and ye shall find I did search for God through prayer, Bible reading, pastoral counselling, many years of being taught by nuns and monks. I wanted to believe but my brain could never process that data. I don't think that any of us choose to believe anything. You believe that the Rocky Mountains exist because you and every person with eyesight can see them. You don't choose to believe that they exist as you stand at the Lodge at Lake Louise. You don't choose to believe that you are tired after working 10 hours without a break. You can't see Atoms and protons but you know they exist because of the abundant scientific data, the secondary results of chemical reactions etc. You know atoms are real, you don't choose to believe in atoms. You don't believe in cubical spheres, the square root of minus one, or that a snail can play Lord Gordon's Reel on a fiddle. You know that those are not possible by any natural law. You don't believe them; you don't choose to not believe. God is in a different category. He is invisible, inaudible, intangible, and non-tactile to our investigation. But so is outer space dark matter. He is or is not the creator of the universe. If he is such a creator you don't know if he is sentient (conscious) and intelligent, or on a level different from human mentality. As a result some people believe and others do not. It might seem to you like choice; but I can tell you it is not. If it were simple choice, I would have been a believer since childhood. My life would have been far nicer if I could have honestly identified as a believer. There is no advantage anywhere in being a non-believer, only varying degrees of negative social stigma. So here is my biography. I did spend years wrestling with the question of God's existence. I was taught standard Christian (Irish Catholic) theology. I studied the bible and had as I said, taken a theology elective in Biblical Studies and Exegesis in each of my four years at university. I had counselling with our local priest. I did this because I "wanted" to believe. I tried to choose to believe but it just wouldn't stick. Now as I note a few grey hairs among my formerly solid black mane, I note my approaching mortality. I want to be "right". So I try to find a reason, even an excuse to believe in God and have immortality. That is a very desirable situation. An Atheist believes that at death, all is over forever. That is not very pleasant. So I am motivated to find that I am wrong. I know that my elder years would be nicer if I looked forward to an afterlife and a good afterlife. So, when I die, I may not have not yet found the key data to convince me that God is real. Then I am face to face with God. Everyone tells me that it is too late then to say, "Corblimey, you are real." Do I get an "A" for effort at trying hard to believe, but failed the final exam because I couldn't programme it into my brain? This leads me to conclude that the brain has to have the necessary hardware and circuit systems that process religious concepts as plausible and correct (what we call belief). If my brain either has a rigourous rational filter that rejects all that is not strictly logical, I may be incapable of belief in spite of my desire to believe. Perhaps I lack a religious module that you have, and therefore I am unable to formulate a believable processing of information on God and religion. I have a good appetite. I generally like anything on my plate. But on a visit to America, I tasted sauer kraut. It was disgusting. I almost threw up. I tried twice more but just could not make myself swallow it. I didn�t choose to not like it, my taste system and olfactory brain did. I was embarrassed for insulting my host�s cooking. This hopefully sums up my ideas about the brain. I don�t think there is any �we� who control our brain. I think �we� are our brain. It chooses what we do and think. Conchobar

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05-15-2003, 05:57 PM	#21
Jet Grind Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Southern Maine, USA Posts: 220	Darth Dane, seriously, are actually here for intellectual discourse or are you just trying to irritate us?

05-16-2003, 09:39 AM	#25
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Jesus was a fool eh? A fool doesn't Know right? Ignorance is Bliss? The wise man knows he doesn't know everything, probably doesn't know much of anything, and for damn sure doesn't claim he has the "whole truth" or that such is attainable. If Jesus claimed to know the "whole truth", and claimed that that truth was the answer to the ultimate "why" question, then he was mistaken. I'm not convinced he claimed to know the whole truth, so I'm not ready to personally label him a fool. Personally, I think his teaching was more along the lines of attaining self-realization and a life of peace and joy rather than illuminating an answer to the "why" question. One can attain those things without knowing, or requiring, a "reason" answer to the "why" question. In fact, realizing that the why question is pointless, that there is no ultimate, knowable answer to "why", is an imortant step to understanding and coming to peace with yourself and your brief life in this universe.

05-16-2003, 01:32 PM	#28
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Which God should I go looking for? There are alot out there. Since when is zero a lot? Oh, I get it. You mean god-myths. And there's lots of mythical gods that I wouldn't particularly want to find.

05-16-2003, 04:39 PM	#29
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	The wise man knows he doesn't know everything, probably doesn't know much of anything, and for damn sure doesn't claim he has the "whole truth" or that such is attainable. I don't either, but it would be nice to know if it was possible to know, no? If Jesus claimed to know the "whole truth", and claimed that that truth was the answer to the ultimate "why" question, then he was mistaken. I'm not convinced he claimed to know the whole truth, so I'm not ready to personally label him a fool. I agree, Jesus said he was One with his father, but not equal. Not equal to God = not the whole Truth One with God = One in essense? Personally, I think his teaching was more along the lines of attaining self-realization and a life of peace and joy rather than illuminating an answer to the "why" question. One can attain those things without knowing, or requiring, a "reason" answer to the "why" question. Yes, the story from buddha about the arrow and the man who got hit's demand to know who and why he was shoot, before being treated from the injury. Stay in the living moment, not in the past where "Why's" dwell. In fact, realizing that the why question is pointless, that there is no ultimate, knowable answer to "why", is an imortant step to understanding and coming to peace with yourself and your brief life in this universe. Yes, but if we are one in essense, our essense will be carried by God at all times as an example of how to live, so taht others may learn from your mistakes? Nice thought eh? DD - Love Spliff

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