Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Derec · 05-20-2003, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lunachick
I do say the same thing to women. Double the prevention - no need for the cure.

But, given that this is not a perfect world peopled with perfect sexually abstinent and/or responsible sober people, the man must also cover his ass, or suffer the consequences, also.

Yet under the present system the woman has several ways out after the conception. The man has none. That is the issue. Of course people that don't want to become parents should both take preventitive measures (best decide it together), that really goes without saying.

UMoC

lunachick · 05-20-2003, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UglyManOnCampus
Also men that wnat the custody of the child should have the same access to it as women, including child support from the woman.

UMoC

That is the case in NZ.

Quote:

If a woman can absolve herself from responsibility than the man should be able to do so.

....then the man should be able to do so?? What planet are you on?? Far more men are more capable of completely getting off scott free than women are. Crikey.

Anyway - I really have to dash...

BBL

AquaVita · 05-20-2003, 08:31 PM

Lunachick...I have watched you repeatedly twist the words and arguments of your opponents here.

Would it not be more productive to respond to what they say rather then what you think they are saying?

lunachick · 05-20-2003, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AquaVita
Lunachick...I have watched you repeatedly twist the words and arguments of your opponents here.

Would it not be more productive to respond to what they say rather then what you think they are saying?

Huh?

AV, I'll be back in about 4 - 5 hours, when I'll have more timegive it more thought.

Soyin Milka · 05-20-2003, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Buddrow_Wilson
I'll share a little personal history: My mother had three children. Each of us have different fathers. My mother has gone through much difficulty attempting to extract child support from my 2 brothers' fathers (I never met my own father, and my mother never attempted to locate him) with very little to show from it. In my opinion, all the effort was wasted, and these men were not good role models for my brothers. They did not and still do not show any desire to be a part of their lives. From my point of view the legislation had no real effect here. All of the money that has been collected from them went to pay the state's legal fees!!

My opinion is that if the man doesn't want anything to do with the child, well then screw him, better off forgetting he ever existed.

And I would still tell any young woman to be careful because this may be what they run into if they become pregnant.

Thanks for telling that story, it helps understand you better where and makes you sound less detached about this issue.

I sorta agree with you that if a man doesn't want anything to do with the child, it's probably best to forget he ever existed. On the other hand, I also feel that rewards jerks for being jerks. It tells men that if they don't want to be held responsible their best bet is to act irresponsibly.

I'm sorry you had to live through all that.

Soyin

Soyin Milka · 05-20-2003, 09:22 PM

Hiya all those in favor of more reproductive rights for men,

I still am unclear about what kind of way out you believe men should have after conception. I mentionned my fears about it earlier, but no one reacted to them so I thought I would try a more direct approach and ask questions.

How would it work?
Can a man decide at anytime during pregnancy that he doesn't want to be the legal father or would there be a time limit?
Can he change his mind after his initial decision?
Would the man's decision not to be the legal father imply he also waives his rights as the father?
What happens if the man is unaware of the pregnancy and learns about it only after the childbirth?
What should happen if a man changes his mind years after childbirth and now wishes to have a relationship with the child?

I'm also worried any way out after conception would make it less important for men to be concerned about preventing conception in the first place. If all they have to do to walk away is sign a piece of paper, how can you prevent the burden of prevention from being placed much more on women? Safe sex considerations would be a valid answer and could apply to casual relationships, but what about longer relationships?

I'm looking forward to reading any answer to these questions.

Soyin

Loren Pechtel · 05-20-2003, 09:42 PM

Originally posted by lunachick
I am quite horrified by the selfishness and nastiness that Im feeling in the undertones of some of the suggestions and "blame" in here. I'm getting the feeling of women being virtually blackmailed into abortions - akin to forced abortions, IMO.

Blackmailed? If she didn't want an abortion she should say so BEFORE--she's the one holding the non-standard position.

But! I did want to return to this - "innocent party" - what innocent party? I'll say it again - if you are a man and you do not want the responsibility of a child, then take responsibilty for your own body and your own fertility, too.

Is someone who was oopsed not an innocent victim? Is someone who only thought he was the father an innocent victim? Is someone who never even had sex with her an innocent victim?

People in this thread appear to be using abortion - something which can have social, spiritual (for want of a better word - no, I'm not talking religion), health and hormonal repercussions for the one who has the abortion.

Early abortion is safer than normal delivery, which is safer than C-section.

When a woman has an abortion, her body goes from being pregnant to not being pregnant very quickly, and hormones go crazy.

And c-section doesn't end pregnancy just as fast?

Abortion is not a lightweight decision, and shouldn't be treated like a form of contraception - PREVENTION IS BETTER THAN CURE!

Nobody's advocating that.

As for soooo many men being duped out there - gosh! it must be all of 120% of named fathers! - you guys watch too much Rikki Lake. If you are unsure, get a paternity test. It's not that hard to do.

Nobody's making any assertions as to how often it happens, only that it does.

Loren Pechtel · 05-20-2003, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pyrrho
By the way, that death rate for vasectomies seems awfully high to me. Unless the guy moves suddenly and violently during the procedure, or the person performing it has a sudden spasm, I don't see how anyone could die from it; it must be that they die from infections later. It is something you could do to yourself (if you were a man), though obviously it would not be fun, and I would not recommend that. Frankly, I would be surprised if the death rate for a vasectomy were worse than for an accidental cut that pierces the skin (you don't have any numbers on that, do you?).

I have no idea of the death rate from a cut. I'm sure your right about the causes of vasectomy deaths--infection is still a killer.

Loren Pechtel · 05-20-2003, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UglyManOnCampus
And also Loren quotes a case where a man was a sperm donor and was forced to pay child support. Both cases where laws need to be amended.

One minor mitigating cirumstance--she wasn't the one doing it. She fell on bad times and applied for welfare. They went after him.

Buddrow_Wilson · 05-20-2003, 09:50 PM

Here's my scenario:

The mother has complete and total custody of all children that are born of her.

She has the right to grant joint custody to any man (similar to adoption) that she deems worthy. This would preferably be done at the hospital when the birth certificate is being processed.

After this the mother may not remove the father's custody without a court proceding to prove he is unfit. The man could deny his custody at any time, but this would probably not be wise if he values the relationship with the mother. If he did relinquish his rights to the child, it would show he is unfit to be a father.

If the man learns of the child after it is born, once again it is the discretion of the mother to grant joint custody.

Unfortunately this may indeed make men less concerned about birth control, but I would hope they are still concerned about STDs and would have similar precautions.

Again, it boils down to my belief that it is the females ultimate burden. However, any decent man would do what is right and be a good father, providing much more than just monetary support.

I am suprised that no woman has supported this. It seems to be the ultimate conclusion of the women's right to control her own body.

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05-20-2003, 08:31 PM	#73
AquaVita Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Dallas Posts: 4,351	Lunachick...I have watched you repeatedly twist the words and arguments of your opponents here. Would it not be more productive to respond to what they say rather then what you think they are saying?

05-20-2003, 09:22 PM	#76
Soyin Milka Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Absurdistan Posts: 299	Hiya all those in favor of more reproductive rights for men, I still am unclear about what kind of way out you believe men should have after conception. I mentionned my fears about it earlier, but no one reacted to them so I thought I would try a more direct approach and ask questions. How would it work? Can a man decide at anytime during pregnancy that he doesn't want to be the legal father or would there be a time limit? Can he change his mind after his initial decision? Would the man's decision not to be the legal father imply he also waives his rights as the father? What happens if the man is unaware of the pregnancy and learns about it only after the childbirth? What should happen if a man changes his mind years after childbirth and now wishes to have a relationship with the child? I'm also worried any way out after conception would make it less important for men to be concerned about preventing conception in the first place. If all they have to do to walk away is sign a piece of paper, how can you prevent the burden of prevention from being placed much more on women? Safe sex considerations would be a valid answer and could apply to casual relationships, but what about longer relationships? I'm looking forward to reading any answer to these questions. Soyin

05-20-2003, 09:42 PM	#77
Loren Pechtel Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Not Mayaned Posts: 96,752	Originally posted by lunachick I am quite horrified by the selfishness and nastiness that Im feeling in the undertones of some of the suggestions and "blame" in here. I'm getting the feeling of women being virtually blackmailed into abortions - akin to forced abortions, IMO. Blackmailed? If she didn't want an abortion she should say so BEFORE--she's the one holding the non-standard position. But! I did want to return to this - "innocent party" - what innocent party? I'll say it again - if you are a man and you do not want the responsibility of a child, then take responsibilty for your own body and your own fertility, too. Is someone who was oopsed not an innocent victim? Is someone who only thought he was the father an innocent victim? Is someone who never even had sex with her an innocent victim? People in this thread appear to be using abortion - something which can have social, spiritual (for want of a better word - no, I'm not talking religion), health and hormonal repercussions for the one who has the abortion. Early abortion is safer than normal delivery, which is safer than C-section. When a woman has an abortion, her body goes from being pregnant to not being pregnant very quickly, and hormones go crazy. And c-section doesn't end pregnancy just as fast? Abortion is not a lightweight decision, and shouldn't be treated like a form of contraception - PREVENTION IS BETTER THAN CURE! Nobody's advocating that. As for soooo many men being duped out there - gosh! it must be all of 120% of named fathers! - you guys watch too much Rikki Lake. If you are unsure, get a paternity test. It's not that hard to do. Nobody's making any assertions as to how often it happens, only that it does.

05-20-2003, 09:50 PM	#80
Buddrow_Wilson Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Arkansas Posts: 1,589	Here's my scenario: The mother has complete and total custody of all children that are born of her. She has the right to grant joint custody to any man (similar to adoption) that she deems worthy. This would preferably be done at the hospital when the birth certificate is being processed. After this the mother may not remove the father's custody without a court proceding to prove he is unfit. The man could deny his custody at any time, but this would probably not be wise if he values the relationship with the mother. If he did relinquish his rights to the child, it would show he is unfit to be a father. If the man learns of the child after it is born, once again it is the discretion of the mother to grant joint custody. Unfortunately this may indeed make men less concerned about birth control, but I would hope they are still concerned about STDs and would have similar precautions. Again, it boils down to my belief that it is the females ultimate burden. However, any decent man would do what is right and be a good father, providing much more than just monetary support. I am suprised that no woman has supported this. It seems to be the ultimate conclusion of the women's right to control her own body.

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