Freethought & Rationalism Archive

davidH · 08-30-2002, 01:23 PM

Aerik Von, lol - yeah I thought your post was funny. The first laugh I've had for ages on this forum!
(I guess the moderators have to take into account that you might have been a fanatic! lol)

Wow, so many questions Nogo.

ok here goes.

Quote:

DavidH
You must ask yourself this question, was Jesus saying that he wasn't good? Or was he rather showing the man that if he was to call him good, then he must recognise him as being God.

Your logic is faulty here.
Jesus says that only God is "good".
Jesus objects to being called "good".
then
Jesus is not God.

How this is twisted into the exact opposite of what it means is beyond me.

You say that Jesus objects to being called "good".
- I can see no evidence of this in the passage, can you see it somewhere?

No-one is good except God alone - (do you see me as God?)

In the circumstances of a normal man saying this, then yes, although he doesn't actually deny that he is God it would seem reasonable to assume that he is denying it.

But when Jesus says this, he doesn't straight afterwards deny that he is God, or laugh at the man in a joking way or something. He leaves it hanging.
You must also realise that Jesus wasn't an ordinary man, - he did many miracles, just before this incident he had cast out evil spirits, he had fed 4000 people with 7 loaves, healed mute people.
This was a man that did signs that only God was capable of doing, therefore since Jesus claimed to be God (My Father and I are one) when he said this he was throwing back a word for the man to consider - trying to get across to the man that he was the promised Messiah the Son of God.

Quote:

DavidH
Nobody will ever bye that explanation. Prove to me that this existed in the ancient times - in every text written by an ancient King that I have read he has never referred to himself as "we" or "us".

That's an easy one.

Point 1
The Jewish people, who by the way wrote this text, believed in a single God. This distinguished them from other people around them.

Point 2
The Bible states in many verses that Yahweh is one, there is no other.

Point 3
The Bible also uses Elohim (plural)

Point 4
For centuries Israelites and Jews did not see this as a problem or contradiction and went on believing in a single God.

You can draw your own conclusion.

Ok so the Jewish people believed in a single God, yet they use the name of Elohim (plural) and see this as no contradiction.

Not in answer to this - but because someone else believes something, are u going to believe it without question? That is just like pointing to all the Christians in the world and saying - look they all believe in God, therefore he must exist.
- You just can't say that.

What you have provided in no way answers what I have written - no other King in the OT uses the "we" or "us" to mean singular, nor in any other ancient writtings from that time that I have read.

So you have still not answered the question - why did the LORD who says he is one, also use plural pronouns when talking? God cannot lie, therefore isn't it logical to assume that there is pluralty (if there is such a word) in God?

All the other verses I have given also support this.

Quote:

Actually, I think that the three states of water (H2O) are solid, liquid and gaseous.
Rather than the approach you've taken,

Actually this was DavidH's analogy.

True - but you get the general idea - I said it was something that can help us to understand the Trinity not that it was an exact representation of it. - It helps get the general idea across.

Quote:

NOGO:
Why does the Son who is a member of the trinity of God need to be led by the Spirit of God who is another member of the trinity? The Son is also God needs to be led by the Spirit of God !?!?
DavidH:
Since the Bible doesn't give an explaination for that I can only give you my opinion on that. But all I know, is that the Bible -especially the NT makes it very clear that Jesus is the Son of God and that God and his Spirit are distinguished.

All you have done is restate Christian dogma you have not in any way answered my point.

Yes, I cannot answer your point because if I could I would understand everything that it meant for Jesus to be completely God and yet completely human at the same time, I would understand what relationship he had with God the Father and when he first realised that he was God etc etc.
To answer your question requires me to know the deep things of God and what went on between the Trinity when Jesus was on earth.

- I don't know why Jesus needed to be lead by the Holy Spirit, all I know is that he was lead by him. I wish I did understand everything about Jesus, but he doesn't explain this to his disciples, who wouldn't be able to comprehend it anymore than you or I or anyone else in this world probably would.

Nogo, there are things about God that we aren't told and that we don't understand. I have shown you what the Bible says that confirms the Trinity, but it doesn't explain the details. I don't understand how God never had a beginning, but that he existed always - it's totally beyond our comprehension.

Asking me to explain this would require me to know everything about God and how they are 3 in 1.
I don't know this about God yet and so cannot answer your question. If i did answer your question u have no reason to believe me because nothing of what I say would be in the Bible.

Quote:

The Father and I are one.

For the Father is greater than I

DavidH:
Jesus said that I and the Father are one. Therefore he is stating that they are both God, but in saying this he is showing that although they are both God, they aren't the same.
That is Jesus confirming the doctrine of the Trinity.

Nonesense!
The two statements contradict each other.
A = B
contradicts
A > B

Christianity as a Jewish sect was born in confusion and contradiction. The trinity is just a poor attempt at fixing it.

No the 2 statements do not contradict each other.
It is inline with everything else that I have mentioned in the Bible.

Jesus said "I and the Father are one."
- You have not denied that this mean Jesus is the same as the LORD and instead of admitting that the Bible does support the Trinity you have choosen this way out.

1. You have no proof, that Christianity was born out of confusion and contradiction. You try and explain away this verse by doing this.
My interpretation isn't an attempt at fixing this, because my interpretation is inline with all the other verses that I have mentioned.
Therefore this verse isn't proof of confusion since it is not confusion when seen with all the other verses.

Let me explain it.

Jesus said, "The Father is greater than I."
Jesus said, "I and the Father are one."

Jesus didn't say, "I and the Father are one and the same."
He just said that they were one.

"Hear O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one"
Deut 6 v 4.

Isaiah 59 v 20
"The Redeemer will come to Zion, and to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,"
declares the LORD.

Do you not understand?

They are the same and yet they are different. Jesus is God, the LORD is God and yet Jesus is not the same as the LORD.

It is the Trinity. They are all God but they are not all the same.

All the verses that I have shown you show this.
I have shown from John 1 and 14 that Jesus is God.And taught as God.

I've also shown that the Holy Spirit is God and yet not the LORD.

This is the Trinity, the 3 in 1.
It's not something made up by the Christians, but something that the Bible clearly shows.

Can you see this Nogo? Or are you still going to stick by your guns?

GunnerJ · 08-30-2002, 02:31 PM

It's interesting, dave, last time i checked, the words "we" and "us" were not restricted for the sole use of groups of three. How do you know the ancient Hebrews belived there god was a trinity based on the usage of these words, and not, say, a duality, or a quadrangle, or a cast of hundreds?

Oh, wait, that's right; you force support your own dogma onto what they said in order to support it. Gotcha.

NOGO · 08-30-2002, 05:48 PM

NOGO:
Why does the Son who is a member of the trinity of God need to be led by the Spirit of God who is another member of the trinity? The Son is also God needs to be led by the Spirit of God !?!?

DavidH:
Since the Bible doesn't give an explaination for that I can only give you my opinion on that. But all I know, is that the Bible -especially the NT makes it very clear that Jesus is the Son of God and that God and his Spirit are distinguished.

NOGO:
All you have done is restate Christian dogma you have not in any way answered my point.

DavidH
Yes, I cannot answer your point because if I could I would understand everything that it meant for Jesus to be completely God and yet completely human at the same time, I would understand what relationship he had with God the Father and when he first realised that he was God etc etc.

Nonesense!
You cannot answer because your interpretation is faulty.

In the following verse Samuel anoint David. Please remember that Christ means the anointed one of God.

1 Samuel 16:13
Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon David from that day forward. And Samuel arose and went to Ramah.

Note that after David was anointed the spirit of Yahweh came upon him from that day foreward.

David was guided by the spirit of God because he was the anointed one of God (the Christ if you will)

David was a man and so was Jesus. Jesus was guided by the spirit of God because he was the anointed one of God ie the Christ (in Hebrew mythology).

That is why you cannot answer my point, DavidH. All this talk about the trinity is just fiction. If Yahweh had been a trinity the Bible would have said so explicitly. It does not. Jesus did not say it explicitly either. You have to argue about it reading between the lines. It's a joke.

NOGO · 08-30-2002, 05:55 PM

Quote:

DavidH
This was a man that did signs that only God was capable of doing, therefore since Jesus claimed to be God (My Father and I are one)

First, "My Father and I are one" is not a claim to be God as I already explained to you.

Second,
According to the Bible Moses did all sort of miracles but noone claimed that he was God.

Also
Jesus cured a man who was blind from birth. Did the man call Jesus God because he witnessed a miracle? No, he called him the "anointed one of God" which is the same title given to David and several other Kings of Israel.

See DavidH, ony Christians think that just because a man does a few tricks then he is God. Jews always believed that "MEN of God" were capable of miracles. This is how Christianity got all this messed up.

[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]

NOGO · 08-30-2002, 06:06 PM

Quote:

DavidH
You say that Jesus objects to being called "good".
- I can see no evidence of this in the passage, can you see it somewhere?

Mark 10:18
And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.

First a rhetorical question which Jesus expects no answer since he immediately gives one.

Second a clear statement that noone except God is good.

If Jesus did not object to being called good then he would not haved asked a question and then immediately have given the answer. He would have skipped the issue altogether.

You are reading into this.

Jayhawker Soule · 08-30-2002, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidH:
This is the Trinity, the 3 in 1. It's not something made up by the Christians, but something that the Bible clearly shows.

Clearly?

The Trinity is no more and no less than the last doctrine standing in the decades-long struggle between competing heresies. It is simply the doctrine with the most blood on its hands. The trinity is a Christian construct forged in blood and deception, and to project such silliness back to Old Testament Judaism demands a shameful disregard of church history.

NOGO · 08-30-2002, 06:22 PM

Quote:

DavidH
Ok so the Jewish people believed in a single God, yet they use the name of Elohim (plural) and see this as no contradiction.

Not in answer to this - but because someone else believes something, are u going to believe it without question?

Let me give you an analogy.
Greeks created Zeus and related mythology.
I don't go around telling them what it means.

To the Jews Christianity is a weird sect with bizarre ideas and interpretation of their Bible. For example the trinity which is not explicitly state, but if you look hard enough you can see anything that you want.

Aerik Von · 08-30-2002, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NOGO:


Let me give you an analogy.
Greeks created Zeus and related mythology.
I don't go around telling them what it means.

To the Jews Christianity is a weird sect with bizarre ideas and interpretation of their Bible. For example the trinity which is not explicitly state, but if you look hard enough you can see anything that you want.

Some Christians even believe that is the "Revalations" hype is all hooey meant to scare people and that "judgement day" will be quite different. They feel as if Revalations is a HISTORY book, not a future tale.

NOGO · 08-30-2002, 06:41 PM

Mt24:36
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

If Jesus and the Father are one then why is it that Jesus does not know the day and hour of his return?

Another mystery, right?

Jesus admits that he is limited. He does not know something. Therefore he cannot be the God described in the OT.

wordsmyth · 08-31-2002, 03:01 PM

My $0.02

Even early xians had a great deal of trouble reconciling the nature and attributes of Jesus with the Trinity.

Here is a brief timeline of events that led up to the doctrine of the xian God as a Trinity.

Quote:

325 A.D.: Emperor Constantine calls to order the Council of Nice and decrees that Christ is "consubstantial" (of the same nature) with the Father.

381 A.D.: Emperor Theodosius calls to order the First Council of Constantinople, there it is decided that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father.

388 A.D.: Emperor Theodosius threatens punishment to all who refute the Trinity.

451 A.D.: Emperor Marcian calls the Council of Chalcedon to order, there it is decided that Christ has both human and divine natures.

680 A.D.: Emperor Constantine Pogonatus holds the Third Council of Constantinople, there it is decreed that Christ has two wills.

1274 A.D.: At the Second Council of Lyons it is finally decided that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son.

<a href="http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=192" target="_blank">LINK</a>

In 388 A.D. Emperor Theodosius ensured the doctrine of the xian God as a Trinity would be accepted regardless of any apparent inconsistencies.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

08-30-2002, 02:31 PM	#52
GunnerJ Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: a place where i can list whatever location i want Posts: 4,871	It's interesting, dave, last time i checked, the words "we" and "us" were not restricted for the sole use of groups of three. How do you know the ancient Hebrews belived there god was a trinity based on the usage of these words, and not, say, a duality, or a quadrangle, or a cast of hundreds? Oh, wait, that's right; you force support your own dogma onto what they said in order to support it. Gotcha.

08-30-2002, 05:48 PM	#53
NOGO Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 1,562	NOGO: Why does the Son who is a member of the trinity of God need to be led by the Spirit of God who is another member of the trinity? The Son is also God needs to be led by the Spirit of God !?!? DavidH: Since the Bible doesn't give an explaination for that I can only give you my opinion on that. But all I know, is that the Bible -especially the NT makes it very clear that Jesus is the Son of God and that God and his Spirit are distinguished. NOGO: All you have done is restate Christian dogma you have not in any way answered my point. DavidH Yes, I cannot answer your point because if I could I would understand everything that it meant for Jesus to be completely God and yet completely human at the same time, I would understand what relationship he had with God the Father and when he first realised that he was God etc etc. Nonesense! You cannot answer because your interpretation is faulty. In the following verse Samuel anoint David. Please remember that Christ means the anointed one of God. 1 Samuel 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon David from that day forward. And Samuel arose and went to Ramah. Note that after David was anointed the spirit of Yahweh came upon him from that day foreward. David was guided by the spirit of God because he was the anointed one of God (the Christ if you will) David was a man and so was Jesus. Jesus was guided by the spirit of God because he was the anointed one of God ie the Christ (in Hebrew mythology). That is why you cannot answer my point, DavidH. All this talk about the trinity is just fiction. If Yahweh had been a trinity the Bible would have said so explicitly. It does not. Jesus did not say it explicitly either. You have to argue about it reading between the lines. It's a joke.

08-30-2002, 06:41 PM	#59
NOGO Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 1,562	Mt24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. If Jesus and the Father are one then why is it that Jesus does not know the day and hour of his return? Another mystery, right? Jesus admits that he is limited. He does not know something. Therefore he cannot be the God described in the OT.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.