Freethought & Rationalism Archive

NOGO · 05-11-2003, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Tony
Many people in Western countries believe that believe of religious people in religion is the same as believe of soviet people in communism. It�s not entirely true. I can�t say on behalf of all soviet people during 74 years of communist regime, but during my 27 years of life in Soviet Union (from birth to immigration) I�ve NEVER met a person who truly believed in communism. Everybody pretended. I�ve NEVER seen the same enthusiasm at communist leaders that I see every Sunday on TV churches. We secretly hated our communist party and government and envied people in Western countries. When communist leaders died � we made jokes about it. We always had jokes about communist leaders. We told those jokes to our friends quietly in the kitchen. We developed so-called �Kitchen Culture� (anti-communism jokes), because we couldn�t talk openly about politics.

The ideals of communism died quite early in the soviet union.
What you describe is fate of the unbeliever in a society ruled by faith.

You are right that sheeding communism is much simpler than shedding Christianity. With coimmunism people do have to deal with the idea if guilt of sin against a deity and punishment after death.

In the name of the ideal many soviet people denounced their neighbours. Ditto for Christianity. In this and in many other ways however the two are similar.

Starboy · 05-11-2003, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by NOGO
In the name of the ideal many soviet people denounced their neighbours. Ditto for Christianity. In this and in many other ways however the two are similar.

I agree, in times and places where church and state were one I would think there would be many similarities between Christianity and Communism. This is why it is so hard for me to understand why so many Christians want our government to be Christian and to make this a Christian nation. Apparently they do not learn from history, if you want to make people reject something, then force it on them. Freedom is best in most things, especially religion.

Starboy

lpetrich · 05-11-2003, 12:25 PM

Tarnaak:
So all the laws that rule our universe, physics, math, gravity, ect, just came into being from a "big bang"? What started the big bang? And from the big bang man, animals, plants just started and evolved?

I think that Tarnaak is translating directly from Genesis 1 to the Big Bang; he seems to think that it's our version of Genesis 1.

The human body alone, with all its complex dna, nervous system, brain functions just evolved from nothing in a relatively short period of time?

Again, I think that Tarnaak is imagining that our views are a close imitation of the Biblical creation stories. Note that I say "stories", because there are not one, but two creation stories -- the Genesis-1 six-day one and the Genesis-2 Adam-and-Eve one.

Nowhere357 · 05-11-2003, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarnaak

There is simply no REASON to believe in any god at all.

And frankly, the very concept of god itself is a non-sequitor; it is impossible to support OR deny it the same way it's impossible to support or deny the fact that I have an invisible noncorporeal hippopotamous in my garage that grants me wishes. [/B]

This is not quite the case. There are many reasons for a belief in god, while your INH has few if any.

The reasons may fail to meet our standards of evidence, but not all people follow the same standards.

- Virtually every culture, throughout time, has/had some concept of the supernatural. It is not unreasonable to think perhaps there's something to it.
- Many people find the "watchmaker" idea compelling.
- Personal experience. Anecdotal, of course, but also common.
- We are composed of living cells. And so god may be composed of, well, us.

There are many other reasons. Do not waste your time attacking the reasons here - that would be missing the point.

One more point: atheism is the default position, IMO. That does not make theism false.

Starboy · 05-11-2003, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nowhere357
One more point: atheism is the default position, IMO. That does not make theism false.

I suppose that would depend on what you mean by atheist.

Starboy

lpetrich · 05-11-2003, 02:55 PM

Nowhere357:
- Virtually every culture, throughout time, has/had some concept of the supernatural. It is not unreasonable to think perhaps there's something to it.

Belief in the flatness of the Earth used to be universal also.

- Many people find the "watchmaker" idea compelling.

However, there could be multiple "watchmakers", competing ones, ones with limited capabilities, fallible ones, etc.

And if that argument is valid, then it shows that such a "watchmaker" must also have needed a "watchmaker".

- Personal experience. Anecdotal, of course, but also common.

Except that there are lots of different deities that people have experienced; Lucretius, one of our philosophical predecessors, noted that people would have experiences of various pagan deities.

Nowhere357 · 05-11-2003, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich
[B]Nowhere357:

I know all that - you've missed the point. Please re-read my post.

Sarpedon · 05-12-2003, 04:22 AM

When a man comes up to you and says "I got a deal for you" and says that if you give him 100 dollars now, he'll give you 1000 dollars in a week, you probably wouldn't believe him.

However, if someone comes up to you and asks for 10% of you income for your entire life, tells you that you have to obey his rules, vote for whoever he tells you, recruit others to his group, and raise your children to do the same, so that after you die, your "soul" will go to an amazing happy place forever, whereas if you don't believe him, it will burn in a fiery pit while being poked by men with tails, you WOULD believe him???

What makes the second man more believable than the first?

Ronin · 05-12-2003, 04:41 AM

Quote:

What makes the second man more believable than the first?

That funny gleam in his eyes? The wavering 'Moses voice' he always uses? um...He is someone your loving and gullible family has trusted for years?

Hey, wait...that's one of those rhetorical quarstions, huh?

Stephen T-B · 05-12-2003, 05:23 AM

Hello Tarmaak.
I believed in god as a child because I was told there was one, but even as a not-very perceptive ten-year old I knew that the Bible was too far fetched to be an historical record.
Later, in the absence of any personal experience of god or the need to believe in one, god became irrelevant. Now I regard it as absurd - the creation of wishful thinking; a delusional sop; a coping mechanism for dealing with reality which would otherwise be unendurable.

Since the idea of permanent oblivion doesn�t bother me in the slightest, why should I believe in an after life? And what, do you suppose, will be left of you to experience an after life considering the fact that the only thing you can experience anything with is your brain, and when you�re dead it�ll be just mush.
Answer me this: If our souls can think, can communicate, can experience pleasure and pain, joy and grief, why do we have brains?

05-11-2003, 12:25 PM	#73
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Re: Re: Re: Why are you an atheist? Tarnaak: So all the laws that rule our universe, physics, math, gravity, ect, just came into being from a "big bang"? What started the big bang? And from the big bang man, animals, plants just started and evolved? I think that Tarnaak is translating directly from Genesis 1 to the Big Bang; he seems to think that it's our version of Genesis 1. The human body alone, with all its complex dna, nervous system, brain functions just evolved from nothing in a relatively short period of time? Again, I think that Tarnaak is imagining that our views are a close imitation of the Biblical creation stories. Note that I say "stories", because there are not one, but two creation stories -- the Genesis-1 six-day one and the Genesis-2 Adam-and-Eve one.

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05-11-2003, 02:55 PM	#76
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Nowhere357: - Virtually every culture, throughout time, has/had some concept of the supernatural. It is not unreasonable to think perhaps there's something to it. Belief in the flatness of the Earth used to be universal also. - Many people find the "watchmaker" idea compelling. However, there could be multiple "watchmakers", competing ones, ones with limited capabilities, fallible ones, etc. And if that argument is valid, then it shows that such a "watchmaker" must also have needed a "watchmaker". - Personal experience. Anecdotal, of course, but also common. Except that there are lots of different deities that people have experienced; Lucretius, one of our philosophical predecessors, noted that people would have experiences of various pagan deities.

05-12-2003, 04:22 AM	#78
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	When a man comes up to you and says "I got a deal for you" and says that if you give him 100 dollars now, he'll give you 1000 dollars in a week, you probably wouldn't believe him. However, if someone comes up to you and asks for 10% of you income for your entire life, tells you that you have to obey his rules, vote for whoever he tells you, recruit others to his group, and raise your children to do the same, so that after you die, your "soul" will go to an amazing happy place forever, whereas if you don't believe him, it will burn in a fiery pit while being poked by men with tails, you WOULD believe him??? What makes the second man more believable than the first?

05-12-2003, 05:23 AM	#80
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	Hello Tarmaak. I believed in god as a child because I was told there was one, but even as a not-very perceptive ten-year old I knew that the Bible was too far fetched to be an historical record. Later, in the absence of any personal experience of god or the need to believe in one, god became irrelevant. Now I regard it as absurd - the creation of wishful thinking; a delusional sop; a coping mechanism for dealing with reality which would otherwise be unendurable. Since the idea of permanent oblivion doesn�t bother me in the slightest, why should I believe in an after life? And what, do you suppose, will be left of you to experience an after life considering the fact that the only thing you can experience anything with is your brain, and when you�re dead it�ll be just mush. Answer me this: If our souls can think, can communicate, can experience pleasure and pain, joy and grief, why do we have brains?

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