Freethought & Rationalism Archive

DarkBronzePlant · 07-29-2002, 02:37 PM

Quote:

I have met many people who choose what to believe. They don't think that their little angel could ever be a shoplifter, no matter what the police officer says! In that example, the parent has chosen to completely discredit the police officer's testimony.

Prince Of Peace, you brought up an interesting point there. But what you ought to consider is whether the person truly believes their child could never be a shoplifter. Or is the parent just unwilling to admit it to anyone else, to say out loud that their child could be a crook, and possibly even unwilling to admit it to themselves. To me, it's very possible to believe something yet refuse to acknowledge it. In other words, the person has no choice whether to believe it, yet they have a choice in acknowledging it.

Also, from a different angle, I find it perfectly legitimate for a parent, who has known his/her child for all of the child's life, and has seen nothing but stellar behavior from the child, to believe that the police officer accusing the child of shoplifting is either mistaken or full of shit. i.e. the parent has strong evidence (the child's past behavior) that causes him/her to believe that the odds of the police officer being mistaken outweigh the odds of the child having shoplifted.

Jobar · 07-29-2002, 06:35 PM

I am an atheist; I believe there is no Almighty God.

Note this well though- I do NOT have faith that there is no God.

To me, "belief" is something malleable, conditional, open to questioning and possible change. I know I am not all-wise; I can make mistakes. When I am required to act on any particular belief I have, I try to remember that I could be wrong, and try to plan for that contingency. I try not to put all my eggs in a basket whose bottom may fall through. I try to assign a probability value to my belief.

Faith is a different thing. I must say I have *no* faith, no certain beliefs which I proclaim to be absolutely 100% certain. To use the analogy of the scales, faith is like nailing one pan to the table- you can't (or at least claim you can't) put enough weight in the other pan to move it without destroying the scales.

I think the real problem here is not what we choose to believe- we do choose, according to the information available, and to the uniquely personal viewpoint each of us bring to the choices we make. We choose our beliefs with whatever wisdom we have.

I think that the problem is *if* we choose to have faith in something. Agnostics and weak atheists choose not to, and theists bet their lock, stock and barrel.

Jobar · 07-29-2002, 06:42 PM

Oh, and I forgot to say what a truly excellent thread this is! Thanks DRFseven.

DRFseven · 07-29-2002, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Jobar: Oh, and I forgot to say what a truly excellent thread this is! Thanks DRFseven.

Thanks for mentioning it, Jobar; you're quite welcome.

Dee

Doubting Didymus · 07-29-2002, 07:06 PM

People certainly can choose to believe whatever they like. Its just that how they go about doing that is beyond many of us.

Australian posters may have seen Australian Story recently, about the Button V Anderson retrial. This man, John Button was convicted of the murder of Rosemary Anderson. This show was about the evidence being reveiwed, and it turned out that there was pretty compelling evidence that the murderer was serial killer Eric Cook. They showed crash tests on the kinds of cars involved and proved that the damage was not caused by a pedestrian collision. The evidence was extremely convincing.

However, Although there was really no doubt at all that Button is innocent, Quote:

"It doesn't matter what they say. He (Button) done it and nothing will convince me any other way."

- Joan Anderson, mother of dead girl.

This woman simply refuses to believe that John could ever be innocent. I dont think any evidence at all could EVER convince her. She is choosing to believe it. I don't understand how, and I'm sure I could never do it myself.

I am an amateur cold reader, with a very meagre ability to come up with startling facts about peaople that 'I couldn't possibly have known'. Now, I can't understand this, but occasionally, people keep believing that I am psychic even after I tell them that I am a fake!. They are CHOOSING this belief, despite the evidence, and I just don't understand how they do it.

DRFseven · 07-29-2002, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Jamie: I think we're getting into these word games again. What does it mean to "choose"?

Regardless of whether "choose" is the right word, though, I am saying that whatever the conclusion we come to, we couldn't have come to any other. Our belief systems being what they are, based on lots of experiences and embedded in other cognitive schemes that we don't even know are in place, at any point in time, we "end up" with certain parameters (bullshit detectors) that information has to be fed through before we arrive at an answer.

Get-Rich-Quick schemes, sales pitches, political messages in the media, science and technology news, declarations of love - all of this stuff has to be evaluated in relation to other "facts" that have already been evaluated as true. On the way home, I pass a sign that says "Puppies for sale." I make an instant evaluation, maybe not even a conscious one, that is based on "facts" I know about puppies, myself, my family, long-range plans,etc. I don't have the freedom to go in there and rearrange my priorites arbitrarily; I can't change "My husband would NOT like a new puppy" to "My husband would like a new puppy.", because the fact that my husband would not like a new puppy has automatically been invoked in the thousands of memory data attached by associated code to the stimulus of the "Puppies for sale" sign.

Similarly, I can't rearrange "facts" about what I know about mythology, history, cause-and-effect, etc., when I evaluate the validity of religious claims.

I don't think it's very nice of God to punish me for not believing something he didn't give me any way to believe.

DRFseven · 07-29-2002, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Helen: I think there are choices we make which relate to our beliefs or lack thereof.

I don't think people do usually 'suddenly' come to believe something; or, rather, I think that if looked at analytically, they may have appeared to have a sudden change in belief, but underlying that was a process somewhat akin to placing small weights on one side of some balance scales on the other side of which is a heavy object.

Agreed. You're talking about "valance"; a process by which information is tagged "+ or -" according to automatic emotional memory, and adds up to become a motivational force in our behavior though dopaminergic channels in the brain. This plays up the fact that there is no such thing as purely cognitive decisions; as Damasio says, emotion is always in the loop of reason. Without it, we couldn't act.

DRFseven · 07-29-2002, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Doubting: I am an amateur cold reader, with a very meagre ability to come up with startling facts about peaople that 'I couldn't possibly have known'. Now, I can't understand this, but occasionally, people keep believing that I am psychic even after I tell them that I am a fake!. They are CHOOSING this belief, despite the evidence, and I just don't understand how they do it.

They are coming to a conclusion based on what THEY know; not on what YOU know. As I mentioned in the previous post, emotions are heavily implicated in reasoning; we can't come to a decision without them. The more emotional we are about an issue, the more emphatic we are about that conclusion. People tend to be very emotional about their children being murdered and about "psychics", as well, whom they see as having access to "other-wordly" things.

sentinel00 · 07-29-2002, 11:23 PM

Quote:

"I certainly can't see any sensible position to assume aside from that of complete skepticism tempered by a leaning toward that which existing evidence makes most probable. All I say is that I think it is damned unlikely that anything like a central cosmic will, a spirit world, or an eternal survival of personality exist. They are the most preposterous and unjustified of all the guesses which can be made about the universe,
and I am not enough of a hair-splitter to pretend that I don't regard them as arrant and negligible moonshine. In theory I am an agnostic, but pending the appearance of rational evidence I must be classed, practically and provisionally, as an atheist. The chances of theism's truth being to my mind so microscopically small, I would be a pedant and a hypocrite to call myself anything else." (SL IV.57)

--H. P. Lovecraft.

When I made the change from theist to atheist, it was not because of a simple choice (to believe or not to believe). It was, however, a choice in the method I decided to use to seperate the wheat from the chaff... the truth from the many fictions handed down from authority.

In a way, it was a choice- but not a choice in conclusions; merely a choice in addressing the problem.

As the above Lovecraft quote illustrates, I didn't choose my atheism, but my conclusions are inescapable once I chose a reliable, error-correcting method of viewing the world.

excreationist · 07-30-2002, 04:11 AM

Maybe professional hypnotists, brainwashers, etc, could assist atheists in believing in God. A good starting point for brainwashing is the <a href="http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Secrets/TR/critique.html" target="_blank">Scientology Training Routines</a>:

Quote:

TR 0: Confronting
[ Sit with eyes open for hours, not moving or twitching, "confronting" coach.
For the two TR 0 drills, some hours without any reaction is a pass, 2 hrs recommended. ]
FLUNK! Body Movement. Start.

FLUNK! Talking. Start.

FLUNK! Eye movement. Start.

FLUNK! Non-confront. Start.

FLUNK! Not in Present Time. Start.

These were the words of my staff coach as I began this strange exercise of "confronting" a person. FLUNK! is given at Tone 40 and causes shock and confusion. The robotic "Start" command is given to begin the exercise. The last command for each of these drills is "That's it!", words which grew sweeter as training progressed. The student is not really told the rules for this game, but rather simply gets shouted at whenever a mistake is made. This sort of stimulus-response, I learned, is the hallmark of Hubbard's view of human beings (or "raw meat", as new recruits are called) - mere machines with "Start" and "Stop" buttons.
...

TR 0: Bullbait
[ Sit with eyes open for hours, not moving laughing or twitching, "confronting" coach while s/he tries in every way to make you react. ]
...
The job of the "coach" is to find your "buttons" - those phrases and movements which will cause you to react. The pattern suggested by the Staff coach centered on sexual perversion for the men and body part criticism for the women. Some of the gender-neutral abuse centered on Suppressive Person mockups, attempting to dredge up memories of past wrongs to gain a reaction. In fairness, it was not all abusive - sometimes a good joke ("mental pictures") could produce a FLUNK!.
...

TR 1: Dear Alice
...In this routine, context-free snippets from Alice [in Wonderland], printed on a sheet of paper, are read by the student to the coach...Here, canned script from a master storyteller conjurs up some fantastic and nonsensical images, which the student must refuse to process [smirk at] or fail the exercise. The result is robotic repetition of nonsense phrases, which some have come to recognize as a hallmark of what passes for conversation in Scientology....Rather than conditioning you for the real world where nonsense is met with questions for clarification, Ron is conditioning the mark to confront "Scieno-speak." Ron's writing style and propensity to make up words because he couldn't think of the real ones could give a newcomer the giggles if it were not for this exercise....

TR 8: Tone 40 On Objects
[ Trying to make the ashtray STAND UP. Student gives Tone 40 command "STAND UP!"....

By this point, I was so deluded by the concept of Tone 40 that the fact that I was LIFTING IT WITH MY HANDS was irrelevant. I gave the command, the ashtray stood up. After doing this for half an hour, I felt like God, lifting the ashtray by sheer intention. My Thetan's (Scieno-babble for "spirit") Intention was using my arms and hands, though that was only for convenience, since with sufficient intent they were not necessary. I was allowed to stop when I cog'ed (Scieno-babble for "cognition") on this. TR8 is heavy-duty Scientology processing, or thought conditioning.

In retrospect, TR0-bullbait is a mandatory prerequisite for TR8. Without it, uncontrolled Tone-40 laughter would be the result. Having experienced the delusion makes it easier to understand what happens at the higher levels. Repetitive exercise numbs the mind to the point that even simple actions become nearly supernatural....

Then they should go and live in a commune that is protected from the "lies" of the outside world. They would probably need to keep in close contact with the commune/cult for the rest of their life - otherwise there would be a risk of a relapse into their unsaved state. The atheist should break ties with all of their non-believing friends and feel alienated from them.
The former atheists would also have to use the following technique - for the rest of their lives... this technique is similar to the <a href="http://www.have-a-heart.com/depression.html" target="_blank">anti-suicide "emotional thought stopping" technique</a>:

Quote:

...send negative thoughts back to the subconscious the second they are presented with a resounding sub-vocal "stop". Actually, over time the word "stop" has been replaced with a sort of primal grunt. I clear my mind, if the thought returns I send it back with more intensity. The word "stop" may have to be so intense that it makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand out and your spine tingle with intensity. Throw the thought of suicide back into the subconscious with a vengeance, match or exceed the intensity of the emotion with the word,

"STOP!" SCREAM IT IF YOU HAVE TO!
"STOP!" "I don't deserve this!"
"STOP!" "I--want control!"
"STOP!" "STOP!" "STOP!"
Use the energy of your anger! Use the power of your despair against the very depression that spawned it!
"STOP!" "I-WANT-TO-LIVE!"

Next, or at the same time, begin to stop all thoughts that have anything to do with life's problems or the problems caused by your depression.

"I deserve to die!" "STOP!"
"I'll never get a job!" "STOP!"
"If only I--" "STOP!"
"That bastard always--" "STOP!"
"My depression is caused by--" "STOP!"
"They make me--" "STOP!"
"The pain will never end!" "STOP!"
"But--" "STOP!"

This must be done for at least a full day! From the very moment you awake until you fall off to sleep, you should not have reinforced one single negative thought, not one!

A very important time is just before you fall to sleep that first night. A significant part of this exercise is during our REM sleep after this first day. We have not reinforced one negative emotion, possibly for the first 24 hour period in years. Our "dream work" after this first day has much to do with the success of this mood enhancing exercise...

It would be like that, except it would go like this:
(At a commune)
"This cult is ridiculous..." "STOP! This is my ticket to Heaven"
"But I don't even believe in..." "STOP! This must be a demon talking... I know Heaven exists because the Bible says so!"
"The Bible?! Ha!" "Please forgive me God for these impure thoughts"
"Hehe..." "STOP IT!!! THIS IS SERIOUS! I CAN'T GO TO HELL! I LOVE GOD!!!"
"Ermm...." "SHUT UP! I love you God! With all my heart!"
"..." "With ALL my heart!!!!"
".." "And MIND and SOUL and STRENGTH"
"..." "Forgive me for my doubts God"
"God's not there..." "WILL YOU SHUT UP!?! Praise God. This world is great."
"Heh, heh, God." "STOP!!! Sorry God. Please forgive me."

Anyway, it basically would take a lot of work and commitment to go through with all of that and most atheists wouldn't be bothered.

[ July 30, 2002: Message edited by: excreationist ]</p>

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-29-2002, 06:35 PM	#32
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	I am an atheist; I believe there is no Almighty God. Note this well though- I do NOT have faith that there is no God. To me, "belief" is something malleable, conditional, open to questioning and possible change. I know I am not all-wise; I can make mistakes. When I am required to act on any particular belief I have, I try to remember that I could be wrong, and try to plan for that contingency. I try not to put all my eggs in a basket whose bottom may fall through. I try to assign a probability value to my belief. Faith is a different thing. I must say I have no faith, no certain beliefs which I proclaim to be absolutely 100% certain. To use the analogy of the scales, faith is like nailing one pan to the table- you can't (or at least claim you can't) put enough weight in the other pan to move it without destroying the scales. I think the real problem here is not what we choose to believe- we do choose, according to the information available, and to the uniquely personal viewpoint each of us bring to the choices we make. We choose our beliefs with whatever wisdom we have. I think that the problem is if we choose to have faith in something. Agnostics and weak atheists choose not to, and theists bet their lock, stock and barrel.

07-29-2002, 06:42 PM	#33
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Oh, and I forgot to say what a truly excellent thread this is! Thanks DRFseven.

07-29-2002, 07:06 PM	#35
Doubting Didymus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: East Coast. Australia. Posts: 5,455	People certainly can choose to believe whatever they like. Its just that how they go about doing that is beyond many of us. Australian posters may have seen Australian Story recently, about the Button V Anderson retrial. This man, John Button was convicted of the murder of Rosemary Anderson. This show was about the evidence being reveiwed, and it turned out that there was pretty compelling evidence that the murderer was serial killer Eric Cook. They showed crash tests on the kinds of cars involved and proved that the damage was not caused by a pedestrian collision. The evidence was extremely convincing. However, Although there was really no doubt at all that Button is innocent, Quote: "It doesn't matter what they say. He (Button) done it and nothing will convince me any other way." - Joan Anderson, mother of dead girl. This woman simply refuses to believe that John could ever be innocent. I dont think any evidence at all could EVER convince her. She is choosing to believe it. I don't understand how, and I'm sure I could never do it myself. I am an amateur cold reader, with a very meagre ability to come up with startling facts about peaople that 'I couldn't possibly have known'. Now, I can't understand this, but occasionally, people keep believing that I am psychic even after I tell them that I am a fake!. They are CHOOSING this belief, despite the evidence, and I just don't understand how they do it.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.