HelenM

I think you mean "dahft" don't you?

You're only pretend? Oh well *sigh* I suppose I'll get over it...

As for the virgin birth, well, conservative Christians believe God can do anything. And theologically the virgin birth is thought to have been necessary so that Jesus didn't inherit a 'sin nature' - if he had had a human father he would have had a sin nature. Plus if he was Joseph's biological son he would have been 'cursed' based on a verse in the OT and couldn't have been King of the Jews because the Kingly line through Joseph was cursed.

Thus there are theological nuances to the virgin birth, as I was taught, that would cause serious theological problems to conservative Christians if it was, say, proven that Jesus was not in fact, conceived by the Holy Spirit, of the Virgin Mary.

love
Helen

brighid

Okay – how many years was that after Christ’s death? Not hundreds, but I would say that a few decades into the next CENTURY might lend some credibility to the fact that the virgin birth wasn’t believed until a LONG time after Christ’s alleged death.

Brighid

Mageth

The earliest New Testament books make no reference to the virgin birth, and appear to be written by men who had never heard of the doctrine. Only the later two of the gospels (Matthew and Luke) mention the virgin birth. Add on to that that the prophecy from Isaiah mentioned in Matthew was a misunderstanding of the Isaiah text. Hmm...

Veil of Fire

Well, no, not entirely.

Ya see, if a man and a woman are going ALMOST all the way, and are naked, and petting, and basically rubbing all over each other like almost-lovers are wont to do, the male will typically produce seminal fluid (pre-cum), which contains live active little sperm.

Now, if this fluid happens to come into contact with the vagina, and one of the sperm happens to survive the trip... presto! Virgin birth! (particularly if there's already a tear in the hymen caused by something else, like exercise or fingers)

Of course, that's quite a string of long odds there, but it's happened before according to my Human Sexual Behavior professor.

However, I personally believe that Mary'd just had a grand old time at the Ostara festival and just told Adam "Why... It... it must be the Son of God!" when she started showing.

HelenM

I guess Adam didn't believe her then, since she ended up marrying Joseph

love
Helen

Tricia

*ROFL*

I didn't catch that at first.

~Tricia

WWSD

Oh, I believe in virgin births. In fact, it happens all the time.

If you're an insect...

edited for smileys

[ July 23, 2002: Message edited by: WWSD ]</p>

hinduwoman

It could be an alien who impregnated her.

Veil of Fire

D'oh!

I don't know Joseph from Adam!



*cracking up at my own horrid pun*

Ohh, that was bad....

Stephen T-B

I understand that the Hebrew for Maiden was mis-translated as Virgin, and that 'virgin births' traditionally denoted devine descent.
Apart from that, there are certain practical implications in the story which conservative Christians must overlook
The Nativity was an extraordinary event by any standards:
1. A virgin becoming pregnant and giving birth is about as miraculous as a thing can be, right?
2. The birth of her son is market by a star which shines over the place of the birth.
3. Shepherds watching their flocks by night are visited by an angel and a Heavenly host, praising God and saying “Holy Holy Holy Lord God Almighty, Heaven and Earth are full of Thy glory.”
4. Three wise men / kings turn up at the manger - a manger, mind - having travelled from afar, bringing gifts.

What would the gossip-mongers in and around Bethlehem make of all that?
Imagine these events taking place anywhere on Earth and how they would be received.
Mary and Joseph would be famous, and their child the stuff of legends. He would be the centre of inordinate interest and attention. Yet the Biblical account tells us he lived in obscurity as the son of a carpenter until he was, what, 30?
How realistic is that?
And if he wasn’t famous right the way through his childhood, teenage years and his 20s, how did the story of his nativity get into the Gospels? Is it based on interviews with Joseph and / or Mary? Is there any evidence either of them is the source? Is there any evidence Jesus is the source?
Looked at objectively, the story of the Nativity has all the ingredients of a myth - but I suppose Christianity in its most primitive forms and objectivity run along parallel lines and never meet.