Freethought & Rationalism Archive

AtlanticCitySlave · 07-29-2002, 10:58 AM

[ July 29, 2002: Message edited by: AtlanticCitySlave ]

AtlanticCitySlave · 07-29-2002, 11:00 AM

Speaking for myself, I can't recall an instance where I chose to believe anything. It just sort of happens that I end up believing it and can't convince myself otherwise. For example, when I was a Christian I didn't just choose to become an atheist, but rather I just found myself becoming one as the result of my beliefs changing, mainly from reading.
I do know people who tell me they "choose to believe in God", but I have a hard time believing them. Usually they think they have good reasons for believing (usually some "weird experience").
I do think it's possible to convince yourself of certain things and come to believe them. Like, saying "I am attractive" over and over again in your head may eventually lead to the belief that you are attractive (as some cognitive therapists might recommend doing), but I find it odd when someone says "I choose to believe in God". It seems rather difficult to choose what we believe (IMO).

ManM · 07-29-2002, 11:03 AM

Jamie_L,
I think that atheists choose to disbelieve in the same the manner that theists choose to believe. The deepest metaphysical answers are not conclusions, but beginnings. As an example, we don't conclude naturalism. Instead, we interpret the world based on the assumption of naturalism. When new evidence is presented, we don't redefine naturalism, but instead we use reason to reconcile the evidence to naturalism. And so such beginnings are matters of choice, not conclusion. As I wrote before, I would not go so far as to label the choice as arbitrary. Nevertheless, I believe it is a choice.

07-29-2002, 11:22 AM

If I had a choice, I would still believe in an all powerful God who cares about me and wait with baited breath every year for Santa to leave gifts for me.

I fought against the realization that Santa doesn't exist, telling everyone I believed in him, hoping that the certainty in my words would rub off onto my mind.

No such luck.

I simply cannot find God at all plausible. I am not agnostic, I don't even take god seriously as a possibility any more. I took God seriously largely because other people did. That was before I learned the extent of man's capacity of self-deception.

Beyond belief in God, there is no God. Truth, as the man said, is that which doesn't go away when you stop believing in it.

Regards,
Synaethesia

phlebas · 07-29-2002, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ManM:
Jamie_L,
I think that atheists choose to disbelieve in the same the manner that theists choose to believe. The deepest metaphysical answers are not conclusions, but beginnings. As an example, we don't conclude naturalism. Instead, we interpret the world based on the assumption of naturalism. When new evidence is presented, we don't redefine naturalism, but instead we use reason to reconcile the evidence to naturalism. And so such beginnings are matters of choice, not conclusion. As I wrote before, I would not go so far as to label the choice as arbitrary. Nevertheless, I believe it is a choice.

And right now, no matter how hard I sit here and think about it, I cannot choose to believe that you're right

ex-preacher · 07-29-2002, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ManM:
Jamie_L,
I think that atheists choose to disbelieve in the same the manner that theists choose to believe.

I disagree completely. Atheists do not "choose" to disbelieve and theists do not "choose" to believe. The way I like to put it: you can choose your behavior, but not your beliefs. I cannot choose to believe the moon is made of cheese anymore than I can choose to believe in the God of the Bible. Yet, 10 years ago, I could not have chosen to disbelieve in God any more than I could choose to disbelieve in the existence of Paris.

What happened? I *chose* to carefully examine my beliefs and compare them with the best available evidence and reason. To my utter dismay, I concluded that the best evidence and reasoning suggests that there is no God.

Quote:

As an example, we don't conclude naturalism. Instead, we interpret the world based on the assumption of naturalism.

Are you saying that you are a naturalist? Or only one when it doesn't interfere with your "chosen beliefs"? The truth is, everyone is a naturalist when it comes to real life decisions. Every scientist, doctor, historian, banker, miner, carpenter relies on naturalism every minute of every day. Even theologians are naturalists when they have to decide whether to pray for clean teeth or use a toothbrush and toothpaste.

Keith Russell · 07-29-2002, 11:56 AM

Greetings:

If one chooses to be rational, then one chooses to believe only under certain conditions (when there is sufficient evidence to warrant at least contingent belief, etc.)

If one chooses to reject reason, then one can pretty much 'will' one's self to believe whatever one wishes, for any reason--or no reason--whatsoever.

One would even then be 'free' to be rational at times, again if and when one wishes.

Yes, the choose to be rational does limit one, in that one chooses to base one's beliefs only on that evidence which one has rationally evaluated to be non-contradictory and valid.

The most intelligent theists I personally know, admit that they base their 'faith' on nothing I would call 'evidence'. Instead, they wanted to believe, and 'chose' to do so.

Keith Russell.

Princess of Peace · 07-29-2002, 11:59 AM

The classic example of choice of belief would be he-said she-said. He said that she ran the red light and collided with his car. She said that he ran the red light and collided with her car. The choice is not really what to believe, but how much weight and credibility is given to each piece of evidence.

I have met many people who choose what to believe. They don't think that their little angel could ever be a shoplifter, no matter what the police officer says! In that example, the parent has chosen to completely discredit the police officer's testimony.

Other seem to think that God happens to be all-good, all-powerful, and grants wishes too! People like that seem to choose to either discredit or selectively forget entire passages from the old testament, as well as entire christian third-world countries. Any evidence to the contrary is automatically discredited (by choice) as one of Satan's lies.

Other's choices of what evidence to give credit too or to discredit can seem somewhat like a child sticking her fingers in her ears and singing "lalalala, I can't hear you! La lala!" DNFTT. The troll still thinks you hate God, no matter what.

And how do these people know which evidence to credit or discredit? Well, they already know the right answer, of course! Any evidence to the contrary must be wrong! Only sheer quality and quantity of evidence to the contrary can convince them otherwise, and sometimes, not even then.

phlebas · 07-29-2002, 12:00 PM

Jeez. I'm starting to wonder if we're all working with similar definitions of the word "choose"

Viti · 07-29-2002, 12:09 PM

I keep trying to explain this to my fundy friend..."yes I can go through the motions, attend church, say amen, the whole shebang....but I do not believe there is a God and these actions will not somehow suddenly make me actually believe there is a God so what's the point?" I cannot say to myself "Okay, I believe in God now" because I don't.

07-29-2002, 10:58 AM	#11
AtlanticCitySlave Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: New Jersey Posts: 251	[ July 29, 2002: Message edited by: AtlanticCitySlave ]</p>

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07-29-2002, 11:00 AM	#12
AtlanticCitySlave Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: New Jersey Posts: 251	Speaking for myself, I can't recall an instance where I chose to believe anything. It just sort of happens that I end up believing it and can't convince myself otherwise. For example, when I was a Christian I didn't just choose to become an atheist, but rather I just found myself becoming one as the result of my beliefs changing, mainly from reading. I do know people who tell me they "choose to believe in God", but I have a hard time believing them. Usually they think they have good reasons for believing (usually some "weird experience"). I do think it's possible to convince yourself of certain things and come to believe them. Like, saying "I am attractive" over and over again in your head may eventually lead to the belief that you are attractive (as some cognitive therapists might recommend doing), but I find it odd when someone says "I choose to believe in God". It seems rather difficult to choose what we believe (IMO).

07-29-2002, 11:03 AM	#13
ManM Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: NW Florida, USA Posts: 1,279	Jamie_L, I think that atheists choose to disbelieve in the same the manner that theists choose to believe. The deepest metaphysical answers are not conclusions, but beginnings. As an example, we don't conclude naturalism. Instead, we interpret the world based on the assumption of naturalism. When new evidence is presented, we don't redefine naturalism, but instead we use reason to reconcile the evidence to naturalism. And so such beginnings are matters of choice, not conclusion. As I wrote before, I would not go so far as to label the choice as arbitrary. Nevertheless, I believe it is a choice.

07-29-2002, 11:22 AM	#14
Synaesthesia Guest Posts: n/a	If I had a choice, I would still believe in an all powerful God who cares about me and wait with baited breath every year for Santa to leave gifts for me. I fought against the realization that Santa doesn't exist, telling everyone I believed in him, hoping that the certainty in my words would rub off onto my mind. No such luck. I simply cannot find God at all plausible. I am not agnostic, I don't even take god seriously as a possibility any more. I took God seriously largely because other people did. That was before I learned the extent of man's capacity of self-deception. Beyond belief in God, there is no God. Truth, as the man said, is that which doesn't go away when you stop believing in it. Regards, Synaethesia

07-29-2002, 11:56 AM	#17
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Greetings: If one chooses to be rational, then one chooses to believe only under certain conditions (when there is sufficient evidence to warrant at least contingent belief, etc.) If one chooses to reject reason, then one can pretty much 'will' one's self to believe whatever one wishes, for any reason--or no reason--whatsoever. One would even then be 'free' to be rational at times, again if and when one wishes. Yes, the choose to be rational does limit one, in that one chooses to base one's beliefs only on that evidence which one has rationally evaluated to be non-contradictory and valid. The most intelligent theists I personally know, admit that they base their 'faith' on nothing I would call 'evidence'. Instead, they wanted to believe, and 'chose' to do so. Keith Russell.

07-29-2002, 11:59 AM	#18
Princess of Peace Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Western Washington Posts: 109	The classic example of choice of belief would be he-said she-said. He said that she ran the red light and collided with his car. She said that he ran the red light and collided with her car. The choice is not really what to believe, but how much weight and credibility is given to each piece of evidence. I have met many people who choose what to believe. They don't think that their little angel could ever be a shoplifter, no matter what the police officer says! In that example, the parent has chosen to completely discredit the police officer's testimony. Other seem to think that God happens to be all-good, all-powerful, and grants wishes too! People like that seem to choose to either discredit or selectively forget entire passages from the old testament, as well as entire christian third-world countries. Any evidence to the contrary is automatically discredited (by choice) as one of Satan's lies. Other's choices of what evidence to give credit too or to discredit can seem somewhat like a child sticking her fingers in her ears and singing "lalalala, I can't hear you! La lala!" DNFTT. The troll still thinks you hate God, no matter what. And how do these people know which evidence to credit or discredit? Well, they already know the right answer, of course! Any evidence to the contrary must be wrong! Only sheer quality and quantity of evidence to the contrary can convince them otherwise, and sometimes, not even then.

07-29-2002, 12:00 PM	#19
phlebas Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Metropolis Posts: 916	Jeez. I'm starting to wonder if we're all working with similar definitions of the word "choose"

07-29-2002, 12:09 PM	#20
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	I keep trying to explain this to my fundy friend..."yes I can go through the motions, attend church, say amen, the whole shebang....but I do not believe there is a God and these actions will not somehow suddenly make me actually believe there is a God so what's the point?" I cannot say to myself "Okay, I believe in God now" because I don't.

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