Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Pomp · 04-14-2003, 07:14 AM

He's not just claiming they have WMD, he "thinks we believe" they have WMD.

Marduk · 04-14-2003, 09:19 AM

�I think maybe some Bible thumpers would be happy if ancient texts from Mesopotamia and all knowledge of them were to disappear. A few of them have similar plot lines to later texts found in the Bible. Sargon and Moses have had a very similar start in life. Stories of a Great Flood are part of some of the ancient Mesopotamian cultures.�

Fortunately many of these (Epic of Gilgamesh, Code of Hamurabi etc.) are spread among the worlds museums, many are at the Lourve, and in Germany. It was not unusual in the 19th century for archaeologists from the west to take all the stuff they uncovered back to their own countries. Giant Obelisks from Egypt were taken to London & New York. In this case it seems to have worked out for the best, so far. At least many of the most important pieces are safe. However it is still a major tragedy. The world is run by idiots.

Misso · 04-14-2003, 10:41 AM

It's sad to see that it came to this, but not unexpected. The Iraqi steal what they can, and smash the rest. They steal not to get money or whatever, but just for the fun of it. Aaarhg, it's so enfuriating.

I don't believe all the "we try but can't stop them" crap the US military is saying. It takes what, a hundred men to keep the museum from being looted? Same goes for hospitals.

Something that is again painfully obvious is the hypocrisy displayed. When the Taliban destroyed a few statues out of religious reasons the whole world screamed for their blood, and now the Iraqi destroy tonnes of artifacts for no reason the general opinion is that it's OK since they suffered so long.

Jolimont · 04-14-2003, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Happy Wonderer
U.S. military commanders contend they are doing as much as they can to stem the thievery. But they acknowledge they do not have enough troops to patrol every looting-prone part of the city while also focusing on stamping out lingering pockets of resistance and guarding against suicide attacks.
Some Iraqis, however, question the allocation of U.S. forces around the capital. They note a whole company of Marines, along with at least a half-dozen amphibious assault vehicles, has been assigned to guard the Oil Ministry, while many other ministries � including trade, information, planning, health and education � remain unprotected.
�Why just the oil ministry?� Jaf asked. �Is it because they just want our oil?�

Where is that quote from?

Jesse · 04-14-2003, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Misso
Something that is again painfully obvious is the hypocrisy displayed. When the Taliban destroyed a few statues out of religious reasons the whole world screamed for their blood, and now the Iraqi destroy tonnes of artifacts for no reason the general opinion is that it's OK since they suffered so long.

Who's saying it's OK? I'm sure most everyone would condemn the action of the looters, especially the ones looting museums and hospitals. But we don't know which specific individuals were doing the looting and we can't condemn the Iraqi people as a whole for the actions of a small minority (I wonder if there were security cameras in the building though?), whereas with the Taliban it was clear where the blame lay because it was official government policy.

Danya · 04-14-2003, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Misso
It's sad to see that it came to this, but not unexpected. The Iraqi steal what they can, and smash the rest. They steal not to get money or whatever, but just for the fun of it. Aaarhg, it's so enfuriating.

Lootings happen all over the world when crisis or turmoil become so great. It's not a cultural thing. It's just symantics...these are good ol' boys just lettin' off some steam. The last LA looters were irrational thugs and criminals. Go figure.

I'm feeling pretty steamed and pent up...maybe I can go and start a band of looters and let it all out since that's our new philosophy on the matter.

MrDarwin · 04-14-2003, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jesse
(I wonder if there were security cameras in the building though?)

I rather suspect the looters took them.

echidna · 04-14-2003, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jane Bovary
I agree completely Danya...and I'm not too ladylike to call him a FUCKING philistine.

I think that's a little harsh on the Philistines.

From http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/...172547354.html ,

Quote:

Follow-on forces such as the 4th Infantry Division and First Armoured Cavalry Division were expected to carry on the brunt of what planners call stabilisation duties. But Baghdad fell so quickly that those troops could not deploy fast enough to head off widespread looting. Military police officers scattered throughout the army and marine vanguards were trained to handle massive numbers of enemy prisoners of war, not civilian unrest, defence officials said.

Regardless, this still doesn't explain why standing forces were not required to protect key buildings.

For an administration priding itself and extolling its abilities to think & respond fast to rapidly changing battlefield circumstances, this level of mismanagement is unforgivable & in no small part reflects Rumsfeld's intention to perform the invasion on a minimum budget.

A terrible terrible loss to the Iraqis and to the world.

Primordial Groove · 04-14-2003, 07:50 PM

If every American sent the museum 1 dollar, I wonder how many items they could buy back before they find their way to Ebay or some collectors vault?

My 2 cents: wtf was the administration thinking by not protecting this place. Are they really so dense or do they just not give a rats ass.
Fucking Bush Inc.

Misso · 04-15-2003, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jesse
Who's saying it's OK? I'm sure most everyone would condemn the action of the looters, especially the ones looting museums and hospitals. But we don't know which specific individuals were doing the looting and we can't condemn the Iraqi people as a whole for the actions of a small minority (I wonder if there were security cameras in the building though?), whereas with the Taliban it was clear where the blame lay because it was official government policy.

Some friends of mine say it's ok. Of course the UNESCO and civilized people don't, but there seems to be a lack of civilized people nowadays.
The destruction of the statues by the Taliban might have been official government policy, but policy of a government that is recognized by no country, save Pakistan. So that means that in Afghanistan, too, it was a minority that destroyed artifacts, just like in Iraq. And what excactly is a minority? Are there any numbers of the amount of people looting?

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04-14-2003, 07:14 AM	#61
Pomp Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Indianapolis area Posts: 3,468	He's not just claiming they have WMD, he "thinks we believe" they have WMD.

04-14-2003, 09:19 AM	#62
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	�I think maybe some Bible thumpers would be happy if ancient texts from Mesopotamia and all knowledge of them were to disappear. A few of them have similar plot lines to later texts found in the Bible. Sargon and Moses have had a very similar start in life. Stories of a Great Flood are part of some of the ancient Mesopotamian cultures.� Fortunately many of these (Epic of Gilgamesh, Code of Hamurabi etc.) are spread among the worlds museums, many are at the Lourve, and in Germany. It was not unusual in the 19th century for archaeologists from the west to take all the stuff they uncovered back to their own countries. Giant Obelisks from Egypt were taken to London & New York. In this case it seems to have worked out for the best, so far. At least many of the most important pieces are safe. However it is still a major tragedy. The world is run by idiots.

04-14-2003, 10:41 AM	#63
Misso Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 570	It's sad to see that it came to this, but not unexpected. The Iraqi steal what they can, and smash the rest. They steal not to get money or whatever, but just for the fun of it. Aaarhg, it's so enfuriating. I don't believe all the "we try but can't stop them" crap the US military is saying. It takes what, a hundred men to keep the museum from being looted? Same goes for hospitals. Something that is again painfully obvious is the hypocrisy displayed. When the Taliban destroyed a few statues out of religious reasons the whole world screamed for their blood, and now the Iraqi destroy tonnes of artifacts for no reason the general opinion is that it's OK since they suffered so long.

04-14-2003, 07:50 PM	#69
Primordial Groove Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Earth Posts: 1,570	If every American sent the museum 1 dollar, I wonder how many items they could buy back before they find their way to Ebay or some collectors vault? My 2 cents: wtf was the administration thinking by not protecting this place. Are they really so dense or do they just not give a rats ass. Fucking Bush Inc.

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