Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Anunnaki · 01-24-2002, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BK:
Look around. If you can see anything, that is an example of his handiwork since it is against countless odds that sight arose through evolution.

Oh my goodness! Well I guess that settles it. Why don`t you swing by my house on your way to church this Sunday and pick me up.

Maybe somebody else here with a better understanding of biology and more patience than I have will try to explain eye evolution to you. I wish whoever it is all the luck in the world.

RyanS2 · 01-24-2002, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anunnaki:


Oh my goodness! Well I guess that settles it. Why don`t you swing by my house on your way to church this Sunday and pick me up.

Maybe somebody else here with a better understanding of biology and more patience than I have will try to explain eye evolution to you. I wish whoever it is all the luck in the world.

How do we explain things like eyesight problems, (accounts for 2/3 of our population), blindness at birth, problems such as this? Hardly good handiwork, particularly because the majority of people have eyesight problems. In addition, I remember from neurophysiology that we really only see about 85% of what we think we see. A lot of times our brain supplies in the additional details to what we see, sometimes even playing tricks on us. (Ever thought you saw something that completely didn't exist?)

Vorkosigan · 01-24-2002, 09:46 PM

turtonM: The problem with your analogy is that it ultimately fails. The gospels are not-first hand accounts.

BK: Yes they are.

Prove it. But wait 'til monday. I'm out for the weekend.

Michael

01-24-2002, 09:48 PM

I don't know if anyone else posted this but I read a very good article on the myths related to the world major religions. It was part of my comparative mythology class at college. The article was in Free Inquiry magazine Winter '99

I can't seem to access the <a href="http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/price_20_1.htm" target="_blank">original page</a> so here is a cached page from Google:

<a href="http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:EO4ckQunXK4C:www.secularhumanism.or g/library/fi/price_20_1.htm+%2B%22Free+Inquiry%22+%2B%22Robert+ M.+Price%22+%2BMyth+%2BMen&hl=en" target="_blank">Of Myth and Men</a>

Anunnaki · 01-24-2002, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RyanS2:
How do we explain things like eyesight problems, (accounts for 2/3 of our population), blindness at birth, problems such as this? Hardly good handiwork, particularly because the majority of people have eyesight problems. In addition, I remember from neurophysiology that we really only see about 85% of what we think we see. A lot of times our brain supplies in the additional details to what we see, sometimes even playing tricks on us. (Ever thought you saw something that completely didn't exist?)

I`m in complete agreement. I just lack the patience and knowledge on the subject to effectively dig through the steaming pile of creationist propaganda that BK will probably be throwing at us.

RyanS2 · 01-24-2002, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anunnaki:


I`m in complete agreement. I just lack the patience and knowledge on the subject to effectively dig through the steaming pile of creationist propaganda that BK will probably be throwing at us.

As do I, so at least we're in the same boat.

Oh well, at least I find out new things each time I visit this messageboard.

lpetrich · 01-25-2002, 12:51 AM

Quote:

turtonm:
Why do you think there are so many interpretations?
BK:
Because people doubt the central message of the Bible. No more, no less.

Whatever it is supposed to be; the Bible is not some coherent document, but a mishmash of documents. However, I'm sure that it can be made to seem coherent by suitably creative interpretation and willingness to quote out of context.

Quote:

(Are the Gospels first-hand accounts?) BK:
Yes they are.

Says who?

Quote:

BK:
4 Gospels, all present the same Jesus. There is no question his name was Jesus. There is no question he was crucified. There is no question that he performed miracles. Just look it up some time.

However, the Gospels present at least 2 JC's: the Synoptic one and the John one. And these documents have been rather heavily edited.

Quote:

turtunm:
Did Mary write the gospel of Mary? Do you believe James wrote the Apocryphon of James? Did Peter write the Gospel of Peter?
BK:
No, and neither did the early church.

Actually, there was a committe of bishops which decided which books were to make the sacred-collection cut -- a few centuries after they had been composed.

Quote:

turtonm:
Or people lied about him in the service of their own agendas. Or he was misunderstood. Or the gospel Jesus is a composite figure and a myth, like Arthur, Robin Hood, Hong of the Hongs...... There are lots of real alternatives.
BK:
Their own agendas? And in light of the persecution that Christians underwent from the very beginning, what would be that agenda?

People have been willing to die for creeds that BK would think totally absurd. Islam has celebrated martyrdom for essentially all of its existence, Communist revolutionaries have been willing to die for Communism, some 4500 Japanese kamikaze pilots flew to their deaths in WWII in airplane-as-cruise-missile missions, etc. In fact, I'm surprised that BK has not concluded that Imperial Japan was right because of the kamikaze pilots' apparent willingness to die for it.

Quote:

Anunnaki:
Care to show me an example of Jesus` "handiwork" in the heavens?
BK:
Look around. If you can see anything, that is an example of his handiwork since it is against countless odds that sight arose through evolution.

And BK, what makes you such an expert on evolution? Evolutionary biologists have seriously considered how an eye can emerge by natural selection, and if some designers were responsible for some of evolution, they could be visitors from some other planet or time travelers from the future.

Furthermore, eye "designs" show patterns that are consistent with them being "invented" in some ancestor and preserved and elaborated on in descendants. Thus, vertebrate eyes all have one basic design that includes the nerves from the light-sensor cells being in the path of the light; the nerves must pass through the retina somewhere, making a blind spot. However, squid and octopus eyes all have another basic design that includies having the nerves being behind the light-sensor cells, meaning that they have no blind spot. There are more distinctive features, such as whether the optic nerve is an extension of the brain (vertebrates only) or whether there is a ganglion behind the eye (squids/octopuses only).

If all Earth life was the result of special creations, it sure looks like evolution.

lpetrich · 01-25-2002, 01:04 AM

First, I'd like to thank BK for taking on the Lord Raglan challenge. LR had constructed his list by taking an average of several biographies of mythical/legendary figures, without using Jesus Christ as input. However, JC is a very good fit.

About 2, though Joseph is not a king, the Gospels emphasize his Davidic ancestry.

About 5, BK essentially concedes that; I also note that in Old Testament tradition, lots of people were honorary "sons of God" without being God; they were sort of like adopted sons.

About 8, his parents flee to Egypt, where they outlive King Herod before returning.

About 11, he triumphs over the Devil, who tries to buy him off with promises of rule of "all the kingdoms of the world".

About 12, the canonical biographies picture him as being single, though a non-canonical Gospel pictures him as kissing Mary Magdalene on the mouth very lovingly, and there has been an abundance of speculation about a JC-MM relationship.

About 13, he becomes a famous religious prophet, and therefore a king of sorts.

About 14, most of his religious-prophet career does not have very big events; he wanders around and teaches.

About 15, his teachings are treated as having the force of law; consider why the Catholic Church considers divorce a no-no.

About 16, the Jewish authorities want him put on trial for a Temple temper tantrum, something which also provokes a lynch mob.

About 17, those authorities get Pontius Pilate to do their dirty work.

About 18, he was able to turn water into wine, walk on water, drive demons into pigs, and zap fig trees, yet he does not jump off that cross.

About 19, can anyone say Calvary Hill?

About 20, he is childless; if he had made Mary Magdalene pregnant, the resulting tykes do not succeed him.

About 21, his body is only temporarily buried; he rises from the dead and then ascends to Heaven.

I still stand on my high score.

[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: lpetrich ]

GunnerJ · 01-25-2002, 06:56 AM

Oh, and LP, about the "mysterious death..." If someone is being crucified, and he bleeds blood and pure water, and an eclipse occurs, and an earthquake destroys a temple as he dies, and people start coming out of graves and walking around afterwards; then, well, I'd have to say that's a pretty mysterious f'ing death. Maybe that's just me, though.

BK · 01-25-2002, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anunnaki:
Maybe somebody else here with a better understanding of biology and more patience than I have will try to explain eye evolution to you. I wish whoever it is all the luck in the world.

But I know and understand the theory of evolution as it relates to eye evolution. Do you? If so, then you had better look it over again because it is not reasonable.

BK

01-25-2002, 01:04 AM	#158
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	First, I'd like to thank BK for taking on the Lord Raglan challenge. LR had constructed his list by taking an average of several biographies of mythical/legendary figures, without using Jesus Christ as input. However, JC is a very good fit. About 2, though Joseph is not a king, the Gospels emphasize his Davidic ancestry. About 5, BK essentially concedes that; I also note that in Old Testament tradition, lots of people were honorary "sons of God" without being God; they were sort of like adopted sons. About 8, his parents flee to Egypt, where they outlive King Herod before returning. About 11, he triumphs over the Devil, who tries to buy him off with promises of rule of "all the kingdoms of the world". About 12, the canonical biographies picture him as being single, though a non-canonical Gospel pictures him as kissing Mary Magdalene on the mouth very lovingly, and there has been an abundance of speculation about a JC-MM relationship. About 13, he becomes a famous religious prophet, and therefore a king of sorts. About 14, most of his religious-prophet career does not have very big events; he wanders around and teaches. About 15, his teachings are treated as having the force of law; consider why the Catholic Church considers divorce a no-no. About 16, the Jewish authorities want him put on trial for a Temple temper tantrum, something which also provokes a lynch mob. About 17, those authorities get Pontius Pilate to do their dirty work. About 18, he was able to turn water into wine, walk on water, drive demons into pigs, and zap fig trees, yet he does not jump off that cross. About 19, can anyone say Calvary Hill? About 20, he is childless; if he had made Mary Magdalene pregnant, the resulting tykes do not succeed him. About 21, his body is only temporarily buried; he rises from the dead and then ascends to Heaven. I still stand on my high score. [ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: lpetrich ]</p>

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01-24-2002, 09:46 PM	#153
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	turtonM: The problem with your analogy is that it ultimately fails. The gospels are not-first hand accounts. BK: Yes they are. Prove it. But wait 'til monday. I'm out for the weekend. Michael

01-24-2002, 09:48 PM	#154
HeatherD Guest Posts: n/a	I don't know if anyone else posted this but I read a very good article on the myths related to the world major religions. It was part of my comparative mythology class at college. The article was in Free Inquiry magazine Winter '99 I can't seem to access the <a href="http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/price_20_1.htm" target="_blank">original page</a> so here is a cached page from Google: <a href="http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:EO4ckQunXK4C:www.secularhumanism.or g/library/fi/price_20_1.htm+%2B%22Free+Inquiry%22+%2B%22Robert+ M.+Price%22+%2BMyth+%2BMen&hl=en" target="_blank">Of Myth and Men</a>

01-25-2002, 06:56 AM	#159
GunnerJ Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: a place where i can list whatever location i want Posts: 4,871	Oh, and LP, about the "mysterious death..." If someone is being crucified, and he bleeds blood and pure water, and an eclipse occurs, and an earthquake destroys a temple as he dies, and people start coming out of graves and walking around afterwards; then, well, I'd have to say that's a pretty mysterious f'ing death. Maybe that's just me, though.

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