Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Fiach · 03-17-2003, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jobar
Fiach, sometimes we have topics which so closely tread the line between one forum and another the topic is appropriate in either. So I am not going to do anything about your most excellent post above (for which, :notworthy !) except urge you to copy it to the evolution of theophilus thread in E/C.

Sur-reality- I doubt anyone has said that *all* Christians are narrow-minded. Some are, some aren't. We come here and talk with the narrow-minded ones because there are others who read these threads without contributing; there are some professed Christians who speak far louder against their religion than we unbelievers ever could. All we need do is encourage them to talk!

I thought it was against the rules to post the same message on multiple threads. Is that a rule or is it not? In any event I have no intention to waste my valuable time doing that.

Fiach

Harrumphrey · 03-17-2003, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by candide
Have you ever TRULY converted a religious person, who claimed belief in some supernatural CREATOR to a belief in athiesm, or to have them renounce their faith?

I'd love to hear your "SUCCESS STORIES" and possibly the winning argument that made them give up their beliefs?

Thanks,
Candide

"Let's Get The REAL in REALIGION"

I can think of no better account than that of Dan Barker, preacher turned atheist:

http://www.ffrf.org/lfif/lostfaith.html

You might also investigate his other online writings:

http://www.ffrf.org/bybarker.html

The full details of his deconversion are available in his book "Losing Faith in Faith".

Have fun!

candide · 03-17-2003, 11:11 AM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Cozmodius

Why is "converting" someone or getting them to "renounce their faith" so important to you? Especially if you already consider their faith all that they have? Sounds to me as if you may be some sort of Atheism Evangelist or something.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ahh, too right. I can see how I can come off like some Super Atheistic Evangelist. From an early age I thought I'd become a priest. Well, that didn't happen. Thank ME (not god). I suppose I do let the closed minded bible thumpers really get to me. When I meet someone who's FAITH is all they have, I just pity them. I just want to help them. And show them the truth, or at least, as many have said OPEN their minds. Have them TRULY think about their faith and beliefs.

I just suppose that so many just FOLLOW.

And never question.

And I want them to question.

Am I certain there is no god?

No.

But to me, it seems very unlikely.

And if God exists.

Which do I choose?

Now, I don't want to cause any mental illness by taking away someone's faith. Yet....

I wonder if those people already had mental illness to begin with.

How many people out there TRULY think about what they believe in?

Perhaps that's all I want to accomplish.

Make everyone think and question and test their faith.

If it doesn't stand up, then give it up.

I can't help but liken all this to the film the MATRIX.

When people are brought into the "real world" they can't handle it, they don't want to believe it, they can have a nervous breakdown.

Ah, such intricacies in a mere sci-fi film.

I just hate the idea of people fooling themselves because they have to believe in SOMETHING.

Heaven/Hell/My House Forbid That There Really May Not Be Anything But Science To Believe In.

I've said my peace.

I don't want any nervous breakdowns, just some truth to light up otherwise foolish lives.

I'll take My Peace.

Candide

"He Told Me To Go To Hell," And I Told Him... "Not My House."

theophilus · 03-17-2003, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HRG
Translation: "I have no convincing answer to your post"

And you made this statement based on which authority ?

Regards,
HRG.

The answer to your question is in the post itself.

It is the nature of presuppositions (yours and mine) that they are not authenticated by something beyond themselves.
So I might ask, on what authority you made your rebuttal?

theophilus · 03-17-2003, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HRG
Translation: "I have no convincing answer to your post"

And you made this statement based on which authority ?

Your own ? No, you keep telling us that humans are fallible.

The authority of your God ? It is logically impossible that an authority validates itself. You cannot distinguish the consummate liar from the honest man just on the basis of what they tell you.

So the only way you could maintain your statement - according to the high standards for knowledge that you demand for the rest of us - is to appeal to a higher authority than your God. And who will then validate that authority ?

Presuppositionalism reminds me of an old Jewish joke:

"How can you quickly make a small fortune" ?
"By starting with a large one!"

Regards,
HRG.

In evaluating worldviews, which provide the context of evidences, there are a couple of things to consider:

1. Are they coherent - do they "hold together" as a system?

2. Are they internally consistent - are their parts destructive of one another?

3. Does it provide a sufficient basis for making sense out of human experience.

The Christian worldview, following the testimony of scripture, affirms that God does not lie, nor does he change his mind. So, yes, my authority is God himself.

You will argue that this is circular because you want me to base my authority on something other than my presupposition, but it is no more circular than the atheist basing his beliefs in the "natural order" of things because that is consistent with his presupposition.

There is an unavoidable "circularity" in constructing any worldview, if it is to be consistent with its presuppositional starting point.

I have probably been less than clear in failing to differentiate a worldview from the presupposition upon which it is based. I apologize.

theophilus · 03-17-2003, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless
The Skeptic's Annotated Bible is a handy reference for finding the relevant parts.

Sites like this are often posted as providing "slam dunk" arguments against Christianity to anyone who is really "open."

What they invariably show either ignorance, misrepresentation and a precommittment to atheism.

More than a year ago, someone posted a link to a "Questionnaire" which was supposed to cut the legs out from under Christianity. It was more than a hundred questions which were supposed to compel me to turn from my faith.

After I answered 50 of the questions and demonstrated that they were based on logical fallacies, untruths or simple misreading of the Bible, I soppped.

This site is no different. I picked a link at random in the Contradictions section dealing with "Is marriage a good thing." It purported to show a cotradiction between statements in the Old Testament lauding the benefits of marriage and a couple in the New Testament where Paul cautions against marriage.

An honest reading of the verses "in context" reveals to anyone who is "honestly" open that Paul's comments had nothing to do with marriage being "not-good." Paul is clearly cautioning against the difficulties that the married believers would encounter because of the persecution then taking place. The married believer could not focus on "pleasing God," but must take into account "pleasing his wife." Paul does not say this is wrong, just difficult.

I will not waste my time rebutting more. There have been numerous works which have done this. Anyone who is "honestly" trying to find the truth will not posit such trivialities as arguments against Christianity until they have examined the issues personally and checked to see if there are reasonable answers.

Hawkingfan · 03-17-2003, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by theophilus
The Christian worldview, following the testimony of scripture, affirms that God does not lie, nor does he change his mind. So, yes, my authority is God himself.

We should take this to biblical criticism, because the bible shows that god does indeed lie and change his mind.

God lying:

1 Kings 22
21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'
22 " 'By what means?' the LORD asked.
" 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
" 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD . 'Go and do it.'
23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."

2 Thessalonians 2
11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Jeremiah 20
7 O LORD , you deceived [1] me, and I was deceived [2] ;
you overpowered me and prevailed.
I am ridiculed all day long;
everyone mocks me.

God lying and changing his mind:
Numbers 14
30 Not one of you will enter the land I swore with uplifted hand to make your home, except Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun.

God deceives:
Mark 4
11He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12so that,
" 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'[1] "

Deception: (paraphrased by Donald Morgan)
JN 7:2-10 Jesus tells his brothers that he is not going to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Tabernacles, then later goes secretly by himself. (Note: The words "not yet" were added to some versions at JN 7:8 in order to alleviate this problem. The context at JN 7:10 makes the deception clear, however.)

And there's many more.

Oxymoron · 03-17-2003, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless
I have debated many presuppositionalists. closing the mind is the fundamental characteristic they ALL share.

So I can see. I am amazed at the energy a presuppositionalist requires to maintain their belief system. Since the God Axiom is so feeble and vulnerable to attack (clearly even the presuppositionalist believes it to be so, otherwise why make it unchallengeable?), it must take a huge amount of effort to deflect one's own desire to question and explore one's beliefs, never mind other people's! Such an exercise in futility, fighting one's very cognitive processes, can only lead to an early grave, or mental breakdown (if that didn't cause the problem in the first place).

EggplantTrent · 03-17-2003, 02:27 PM

Hi, this is my first post here. I've been in debates over the existence of God or christianity, but I've never seen a presuppositionlist (i guess that would be the correct word) before.

I have a couple of questions for theo. sorry, this is a long post.

The bible says "ask and it shall be given unto you, seek and ye shall find". There was a song about this in sunday school that we used to sing. So why hasn't god revealed himself to me? I've been to church for 16 years of my life, and I haven't felt any divine presence, and my father is a pastor for christ's sake (no pun intended)! I mean, if you're a god then you're supposed to be omnipotent. Why can't he give me a sign? He has infinite power. Why can't he put big fiery letters in the sky saying "I EXIST"? That would make me a believer again. Why doesn't he come and have lunch with me? Why doesn't he come down to the local park and play some basketball with me? Is it because he doesn't love me? He wants me to go to hell? I don't understand!!! I guarantee you, if God was to show me a sign right now, or if someone said "hello, I am a prophet of God, and here is a logical proof that shows god exists that is not circular and is not rely on you believing that god is a presupposition" then believe me, I will join you in worshipping God and converting the heathen masses.

Why is it that theistic and christian arguments all boil down to "god exists/is the true god because god exists/is the true god"? Why can't he make sense to atheists? Is it because he hates us? I thought God loved us and wants us all to go to heaven?

Now before you say something to the effect of "God and the bible are presuppositions and they are self validating", consider these statements:

I am a muslim. I believe basically in the same God as you. My holy book the Koran incorporates alot of the old testimant, in fact parts of it is the talmud (or whatever). Jesus was not the son of God. he was merely another prophet that ran off his mouth and got nailed to two planks of wood. You christians have the right basic idea, but went astray by proclaiming jesus the son of god. Therefore you are infidels and you will burn eternally. Praise be to Allah. I know this to be true because Allah (the one God) told this to me. It is a presupposition..

Prove me wrong. This is not a joke, or an offhand remark. I really want to know your response. And also, keep in mind that if you use the bible to prove me wrong, I will say that my holy book proves you wrong. I, as a former christian, have asked myself this question.

Let's talk about christianity being consistent with itself.

Your God is a kind and loving god yes? There are many of thousands of people who don't believe in the Christian god, yet they are good moral people. Siddhartha Gautama (the buddha), mahatma ghandi, the dalai lama, the tibetian people, my good friends and neighbors and some family members, my computer science proffessor etc etc. These people are all moral, maybe moraler (if this is a word) than some or most christians. Yet according to the bible, they will burn in eternal damnation because they don't believe in your God. They will burn because your God is having some sort of ego problem.

Is this consistent with a kind and loving god?

Why does so much of the bible contradict itself? Is this consistent with a book details "truth" (whatever that term means) as through the mouth of God? This is not consistent.

If God is all powerful, then is there free will? He is omnipotent and omniscient. He knows everything and controls everything. If that is so, then there is no such thing as free will. Therefore if I go out and kill my mother tonight, it's not my fault. It's God's fault.

If you believe that free will does exist, then you cannot believe in an omnipotent and omniscient god, as that would mean that even God does not know what actions you would take. That contradicts the bible.

If youy believe that he is omnipotent and omniscient and there is no free will, then god must be picking and choosing who goes to hell or not. How does he do this? What is his criteria? Or is he just picking names randomly out of the big cosmic hat?

If you believe in free will and that God controls everything and knows everything, then you are contradicting yourself. You believe in determinism and indeterminism. This is not consistent.

Why are there so many denominations of one religion? Why does the bible preach tolerance and "turning the other cheek" when generations of christians, and even christians today do not follow those precepts? This is inconsistent.

Why do people like me (a former christian) get disillusioned with christianity and realize that it's a narrow minded view? Is it because I am possesed by satan? And why didn't god stop this? I mean, I was a devout christian. church every sunday, sometimes wednesday, pray before meals, pray before I go to sleep at night etc etc. Does God just not love me? And if so then why does the bible say that God has infinite love for everyone? Or does god just love some people, and then hates blacks, jews, atheists, homosexuals etc etc. This is inconsistent.

Why are there so many interpretations of the bible? Or are there infinite variations of the "truth"? So therefore a racist KKK man that says "God says that the black man is inferior to the white man. This is from the bible. The bible is true because God is true. God is a presuposition" is right? I mean, he worships and reads the same bible as you. Truth or reality is dependant on the person perceiving it so therefore if I say "there is no such thing as moist yet flaky pie crust" that makes me correct?

This post is getting kind of long, and I have to go to class. So I'll finish off by saying this is one of the most interesting discussions and forum that I have ever seen in a while.

Goodbye
EggplantTrent

PopeInTheWoods · 03-17-2003, 03:14 PM

Greetings and welcome Eggplant Trent! Great name and great first post!

Andy

03-17-2003, 11:11 AM	#223
candide New Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: New York City Posts: 2	That's what I like, people who actually think. quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Cozmodius Why is "converting" someone or getting them to "renounce their faith" so important to you? Especially if you already consider their faith all that they have? Sounds to me as if you may be some sort of Atheism Evangelist or something. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ahh, too right. I can see how I can come off like some Super Atheistic Evangelist. From an early age I thought I'd become a priest. Well, that didn't happen. Thank ME (not god). I suppose I do let the closed minded bible thumpers really get to me. When I meet someone who's FAITH is all they have, I just pity them. I just want to help them. And show them the truth, or at least, as many have said OPEN their minds. Have them TRULY think about their faith and beliefs. I just suppose that so many just FOLLOW. And never question. And I want them to question. Am I certain there is no god? No. But to me, it seems very unlikely. And if God exists. Which do I choose? Now, I don't want to cause any mental illness by taking away someone's faith. Yet.... I wonder if those people already had mental illness to begin with. How many people out there TRULY think about what they believe in? Perhaps that's all I want to accomplish. Make everyone think and question and test their faith. If it doesn't stand up, then give it up. I can't help but liken all this to the film the MATRIX. When people are brought into the "real world" they can't handle it, they don't want to believe it, they can have a nervous breakdown. Ah, such intricacies in a mere sci-fi film. I just hate the idea of people fooling themselves because they have to believe in SOMETHING. Heaven/Hell/My House Forbid That There Really May Not Be Anything But Science To Believe In. I've said my peace. I don't want any nervous breakdowns, just some truth to light up otherwise foolish lives. I'll take My Peace. Candide "He Told Me To Go To Hell," And I Told Him... "Not My House."

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03-17-2003, 02:27 PM	#229
EggplantTrent Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: earth Posts: 150	Hi, this is my first post here. I've been in debates over the existence of God or christianity, but I've never seen a presuppositionlist (i guess that would be the correct word) before. I have a couple of questions for theo. sorry, this is a long post. The bible says "ask and it shall be given unto you, seek and ye shall find". There was a song about this in sunday school that we used to sing. So why hasn't god revealed himself to me? I've been to church for 16 years of my life, and I haven't felt any divine presence, and my father is a pastor for christ's sake (no pun intended)! I mean, if you're a god then you're supposed to be omnipotent. Why can't he give me a sign? He has infinite power. Why can't he put big fiery letters in the sky saying "I EXIST"? That would make me a believer again. Why doesn't he come and have lunch with me? Why doesn't he come down to the local park and play some basketball with me? Is it because he doesn't love me? He wants me to go to hell? I don't understand!!! I guarantee you, if God was to show me a sign right now, or if someone said "hello, I am a prophet of God, and here is a logical proof that shows god exists that is not circular and is not rely on you believing that god is a presupposition" then believe me, I will join you in worshipping God and converting the heathen masses. Why is it that theistic and christian arguments all boil down to "god exists/is the true god because god exists/is the true god"? Why can't he make sense to atheists? Is it because he hates us? I thought God loved us and wants us all to go to heaven? Now before you say something to the effect of "God and the bible are presuppositions and they are self validating", consider these statements: I am a muslim. I believe basically in the same God as you. My holy book the Koran incorporates alot of the old testimant, in fact parts of it is the talmud (or whatever). Jesus was not the son of God. he was merely another prophet that ran off his mouth and got nailed to two planks of wood. You christians have the right basic idea, but went astray by proclaiming jesus the son of god. Therefore you are infidels and you will burn eternally. Praise be to Allah. I know this to be true because Allah (the one God) told this to me. It is a presupposition.. Prove me wrong. This is not a joke, or an offhand remark. I really want to know your response. And also, keep in mind that if you use the bible to prove me wrong, I will say that my holy book proves you wrong. I, as a former christian, have asked myself this question. Let's talk about christianity being consistent with itself. Your God is a kind and loving god yes? There are many of thousands of people who don't believe in the Christian god, yet they are good moral people. Siddhartha Gautama (the buddha), mahatma ghandi, the dalai lama, the tibetian people, my good friends and neighbors and some family members, my computer science proffessor etc etc. These people are all moral, maybe moraler (if this is a word) than some or most christians. Yet according to the bible, they will burn in eternal damnation because they don't believe in your God. They will burn because your God is having some sort of ego problem. Is this consistent with a kind and loving god? Why does so much of the bible contradict itself? Is this consistent with a book details "truth" (whatever that term means) as through the mouth of God? This is not consistent. If God is all powerful, then is there free will? He is omnipotent and omniscient. He knows everything and controls everything. If that is so, then there is no such thing as free will. Therefore if I go out and kill my mother tonight, it's not my fault. It's God's fault. If you believe that free will does exist, then you cannot believe in an omnipotent and omniscient god, as that would mean that even God does not know what actions you would take. That contradicts the bible. If youy believe that he is omnipotent and omniscient and there is no free will, then god must be picking and choosing who goes to hell or not. How does he do this? What is his criteria? Or is he just picking names randomly out of the big cosmic hat? If you believe in free will and that God controls everything and knows everything, then you are contradicting yourself. You believe in determinism and indeterminism. This is not consistent. Why are there so many denominations of one religion? Why does the bible preach tolerance and "turning the other cheek" when generations of christians, and even christians today do not follow those precepts? This is inconsistent. Why do people like me (a former christian) get disillusioned with christianity and realize that it's a narrow minded view? Is it because I am possesed by satan? And why didn't god stop this? I mean, I was a devout christian. church every sunday, sometimes wednesday, pray before meals, pray before I go to sleep at night etc etc. Does God just not love me? And if so then why does the bible say that God has infinite love for everyone? Or does god just love some people, and then hates blacks, jews, atheists, homosexuals etc etc. This is inconsistent. Why are there so many interpretations of the bible? Or are there infinite variations of the "truth"? So therefore a racist KKK man that says "God says that the black man is inferior to the white man. This is from the bible. The bible is true because God is true. God is a presuposition" is right? I mean, he worships and reads the same bible as you. Truth or reality is dependant on the person perceiving it so therefore if I say "there is no such thing as moist yet flaky pie crust" that makes me correct? This post is getting kind of long, and I have to go to class. So I'll finish off by saying this is one of the most interesting discussions and forum that I have ever seen in a while. Goodbye EggplantTrent

03-17-2003, 03:14 PM	#230
PopeInTheWoods Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Rochester NY USA Posts: 4,318	Greetings and welcome Eggplant Trent! Great name and great first post! Andy

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