spurly

I will start by saying that none of us would ever have this knowledge. That said, if I knew this to be the case, I would probably choose not to bring the child into the world.

The question is, does God know every choice we will make from beginning to end. There are a lot of verses that point to the answer being yes. However, a new study in theology, called Open Theology, is coming to the forefront. According to this theology God chooses to limit his foreknowledge of how we will choose. I haven't researched this enough yet to know what I think, however.

I also know this - I am not God. (You can be very thankful that is so! ). So I am not making my decisions with the heart and the mind of God.

Kevin

mike_decock

Occasionally I want to hurt people back. This is very rare and only if their actions are truly malicious. There have been a few occasions where I have intentionally hurt someone but usually I do so unintentionally. My ideal is to never hurt someone, for any reason.



I understand that.

Right. The unresolvable issue for me is that ultimately, if God is the first cause (intelligent designer), then the flaws in the design are part of the design.

As hard as I tried to maintain my faith, in the end, I realized I had none. What is good, pleasing or perfect in this world seems to me to be overshadowed by those things which are not. I cannot convince myself that God is not ultimately responsible for choosing to create this world when non-creation would have been a more compassionate decision.

-Mike...

mike_decock

Wouldn't a parent make the world perfect for their child if it could be done with no negative consequences?

Yes. I have decided that I won't have children. I have remained celibate for 10 years while I considered the issue. I will vasectomy before I have intercourse again.

If I ever get married, I will consider that option. As a single person, I think it would be unfair to the child since I'm still a working stiff and wouldn't be able to devote as much time to a child as I feel is necessary.

-Mike...

mike_decock

That theology sounds appealing because it resolves many of the issues that perfect foreknowledge causes such as "is there really such a thing as free will" and "why would god create a world in which He knew there would be so much suffering".

I don't believe I am God, either . I simply try to be "God" of my own actions and use my limited abilities to make the best decisions possible. I just can't begin to fathom that love would have any capacity to cause suffering.

-Mike...

fatherphil

let me first say that i don't want you to feel defensive about anything i ask you. that is not my intent.

would i make my child's world perfect? if that meant giving them everything they wanted i'm afraid it would not produce a very pretty result. why the world is the way it is, i have not got the answer. it is certainly not perfect, as i am not perfect. i'm afraid that a perfect world would be void of me and those like me.

let me ask you something. do you wish you had never been born? or is the life you are living worth the suffering you endure?

mike_decock

No problemo. I'm not easily offended.

I understand that given an imperfect world, giving a child everything they want will likely have a negative effect in the long term. I still think that most people, if it was within their abilities, would provide a "perfect world" for their children where they would never have to endure any suffering.

For a long time, I strongly wished that I had never been born and I occasionally contemplated suicide, but never very seriously. This desire has diminished to the point were I'm usually indifferent about my own existence and occasionally I appreciate it. I never appreciated my own existence until I gave up trying to have faith. I no longer had anyone to "blame" for the suffering in the world. It just "is".

It's not that I endure a lot of suffering. I consider myself incredibly fortunate that my life is as carefree and easy as it is. However, if I'm one of the "lucky ones", how much more do the unlucky ones suffer? I can't begin to fathom that and it I could not maintain a belief in a God who was ultimately responsible for it all.

-Mike...

fatherphil

the funny thing is, its enough for most animals to simply multiply as long as they have food enough to sustain themselves. how we have made happiness an elusive thing. i mean a kid that has to share a room and does not own an x-box can be most lamentable.

as far as your relationship with God, you can always pm me if you want to talk about it.

malookiemaloo

The direct answer to your question is an unequivocal yes.

However the problem of Christians' loved ones not being in Heaven with them is as old as Christianity itself. Paul mentions in one of his letters (I cannot remember which one) that he grieved over his brothers after the flesh.

I believe a detached unemotional view has to be taken on this subject. After all my son is not any less important a person than someone in outer Mongolia, although he may to me. (Am I being selfish?)

Ultimately the matter can safely be left to God who is fully aware of our feelings on the matter.


m

HelenM

Ok. I can understand that. I would think you were being unrealistic if you said you never want to hurt anyone - even in a small way, by retaliating.

I was interested to see Corrie Ten Boom was your Great Aunt (on a thread in SL&S).

I know you don't share her beliefs but how do you feel about her and her family's actions to hide Jews from the Nazis? I think that's pretty neat that they cared enough to risk their own lives to try to save other peoples'.

I understand what you're saying. I don't have an answer that will resolve that.

Ah but that is a matter of perspective and if you've struggled with depression it's a fundamental symptom to have a distorted perspective in which you focus overly on negative things and not enough on positive ones.

I suggest reading Feeling Good by David Burns which is a secular book about how to reorient your thinking so you don't overly focus on negative things. Or Learned Optimism by Martin Seligman. Or check out this Cognitive Behavior Therapy site which is the approach of reorienting your thinking that these books are based on.

I suggest you read some things such as I mentioned above, that will help you change your perspective on this world - I'm not saying that to try to 're-convert' you but more because it will help you in the fight against depression.

Helen

mike_decock

Anybody who risks their life to save the lives of others gets a big, fat, thumbs-up in my book, regardless of their beliefs. I've seen great humanitarians from all walks of life. The way I see it, Corrie Ten Boom was a great woman who was also a Christian.

Thanks for the recommendations. I added Feeling Good to my Wish List.

I've actually come a long way to being relatively optimistic and I rarely feel bad anymore and I usually feel pretty good. It took many years before I could analyze the roots of my depression without fear of breaking the taboos which were at the cause.

I can tell, and I appreciate it. Obviously, I'm not looking to 're-convert'. My beliefs were a catalyst for my depression and the more I let go of my beliefs, the easier it became to reorganize my perspective.

-Mike...