Kilgore Trout

Hello YHWHtruth:

Everything you've told me is what I've already seen many times from christian apologetics. All you people do is use pretty language that confirms what I said: Jesus has "excuses" for going against the law. That still means he went against the law.

So Jesus was picking grains because he was "hungry". I think god knows people get hungry on the sabbath. That's why they are supposed to prepare the sabbath meals on the day before! Being hungry is a stupid excuse. Exodus 35:2-3 says :

That shows that even if you have the "excuse" that you are cold, you can't light a fire. As you must know, in the Torah, a man is killed because he was gathering wood on the sabbath. This shows that god doesn't care if you are cold or whatever. If Jesus thinks its cold and heartless to kill someone because they are cold and wanted some wood, then he's calling his "father" heartless. Now I am not going to argue that it makes sense that you can't even light a fire on the sabbath. I know most of the laws in the OT are silly. The point is, these are the laws your god gave Moses. So if Jesus doesn't like them he is not following god, so he is a heretic. I'm not sure about that David incident, but David committed adultery and had her husband killed so he could marry her. Don't ask me why your bible lets him get away with those things either.


That is just part of the law. The priests are supposed to do that. They are certainly not disobeying the law! Where this guy gets off pointing out "contradictions" in the laws that god gave the Hebrews, yet he claims to be the son of god!


When the pharisees point out that Jesus is disobeying the law, Jesus says they are hypocrites in certain areas of the law. I don't know the full details of whether or not they are hypocrites. That is largely taking Jesus' word for it. Lets say they are hypocrites. That does not excuse Jesus. As an example, lets say a Jew eating pork chops says that Jesus is disobeying the sabbath by doing work. Just because the Jew is a hypocrite because he, too is disobeying the law by eating pork, does not take awy the fact that Jesus did work on the sabbath. That is the kind of fast talking that Jesus does that you christians always fall for because you always assume Jesus is right on everything and think he's a genius putting the pharisees in their place.


My point on Mark 7:14 still stands. This is exactly what I was talking about. He said nothing that goes in your stomach can make you unclean. God said lots of things that "go in your stomach" make you unclean. There is a big list of foods that make you unclean in Leviticus 11. Jesus is calling god a liar by saying nothing you can eat makes you unclean. As I said, this has nothing to do with whether I believe the dietary laws make sense. They are what the Hebrew god ordered. This shows that if Jesus come from "god", it must be a different god than the one that gave Moses the law.

mark9950

This was for the HEBREW GOD,Do not forget the historic fact that from abrahams time and forward the city of UR worshipped many different gods.even king sargon and his son proclaimed themselves a god .

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akkadian_Empire

RRoman

Hey guys, thanks for the many replies, but I didn't get another opportunity to continue the "discusion." They weren't on the the bus the last couple days and thus I was unable to talk to them. sorry if I have wasted your time and thanks for all the replies.

YHWHtruth

<<<That shows that even if you have the "excuse" that you are cold, you can't light a fire. As you must know, in the Torah, a man is killed because he was gathering wood on the sabbath. This shows that god doesn't care if you are cold or whatever. If Jesus thinks its cold and heartless to kill someone because they are cold and wanted some wood, then he's calling his "father" heartless. Now I am not going to argue that it makes sense that you can't even light a fire on the sabbath. I know most of the laws in the OT are silly. The point is, these are the laws your god gave Moses. So if Jesus doesn't like them he is not following god, so he is a heretic. I'm not sure about that David incident, but David committed adultery and had her husband killed so he could marry her. Don't ask me why your bible lets him get away with those things either. >>>

“The blessing of Jehovah—that is what makes rich, and he adds no pain with it.” (Pr 10:22) Jehovah blesses those whom he approves by protecting, prospering, guiding, giving success, and supplying their needs, with a beneficial outcome for them. So would he let them suffer in the cold, if they obey his laws?

The blessing of Jehovah on a person or a people is contingent upon obedience to him ( such as not lighting a fire on the sabbath). (Ex 23:25) The sharp contrasts drawn at Deuteronomy chapters 27 and 28 clearly show that Jehovah’s curse, resulting in severe punishment, is upon the disobedient ones, whereas his blessing rests upon the obedient ones, producing spiritual prosperity and filling their material needs, making itself evident in their homes, their land, their offspring, their animals, their food supply, their traveling, their every deed. “Blessings are for the head of the righteous one.” (Pr 10:6,_7) When Jehovah’s people are faithfully obedient, he is pleased to ‘open the floodgates of the heavens and actually empty out a blessing until there is no more want.’ Mal 3:10.

<<<<My point on Mark 7:14 still stands. This is exactly what I was talking about. He said nothing that goes in your stomach can make you unclean. God said lots of things that "go in your stomach" make you unclean. There is a big list of foods that make you unclean in Leviticus 11. Jesus is calling god a liar by saying nothing you can eat makes you unclean. As I said, this has nothing to do with whether I believe the dietary laws make sense. They are what the Hebrew god ordered. This shows that if Jesus come from "god", it must be a different god than the one that gave Moses the law.>>>>>

Your point has never stood on this issue, before or now. With all due deference to Kilmore, it is hard to imagine anyone having a more confused understanding of a very simple observation. Kilmore would attempt to dismiss my general observation on such grounds leads me to believe that he either did not consider the issues carefully or he is really not interested in a serious consideration of the issues.

Let me simplify what Kilmore has complicated

Basically, the point is that a person does not become spiritually defiled by what he eats, such as by eating food with hands that were not washed according to some religious ritual.

As the context of Mark 7:19 shows, Pharisees and scribes had taken issue with Jesus because his disciples ate with “defiled hands, that is, unwashed ones,” while the religious leaders ‘did not eat unless they washed their hands up to the elbows.’ (Mark 7:1-3) Jesus duly exposed them for holding to man-made traditions while ignoring weighty principles of God, such as caring for their parents. He continued: “There is nothing from outside a man that passes into him that can defile him; but the things that issue forth out of a man are the things that defile a man.”—Mark 7:5-15.

Christ’s followers then asked him what he meant. Mark’s account goes on: “[Jesus] said to them: ._._. ‘Are you not aware that nothing from outside that passes into a man can defile him, since it passes, not into his heart, but into his intestines, and it passes out into the sewer?’ Thus he declared all foods clean.”—Mark 7:18, 19.

The grammatical construction of the last part of verse 19 is unusual in the original Greek, but many translators have understood it to be a comment added by the writer Mark. But why would Mark add: “Thus he declared all foods clean”?

Mark’s comment would reasonably be in accord with the historical situation existing when Jesus said what he did. At that time the Mosaic law was still in effect, so certain foods, such as pork, were “unclean” to God’s servants. That continued to be the case until Jesus’ death brought to an end the Law with its dietary restrictions about clean and unclean food.—Compare Leviticus chapter 11; Colossians 2:13, 14; Acts 10:9-16.

Hence, Mark logically was talking about food that was “clean” from the standpoint of the then applicable Mosaic law. The tradition-bound religious leaders felt that in eating even such food they would be made unclean unless first they followed elaborate cleansing rituals. And they tried to impose on all believers these rituals that were not part of God’s law but were man-made traditions. So, when Jesus pointed out the error of the religious leaders’ thinking, Mark could rightly add an observation as to the import of what Jesus said. Yes, food that the Mosaic law permitted would not defile the eater just because he had not ritualistically washed his hands.


Max

Kilgore Trout

The key word is NOTHING! He did not say nothing except unclean foods. He said nothing that passes into a man makes him unclean. I am aware of apologetics tactics that if something that Jesus says would be bad you just pretend there are more words in there, but it is completely invalid. It is also nonsense saying people were ever supposed to stop following the law! Just because your NT says the law is over doesn't mean it is. God said many times in the Torah to follow the Law FOREVER.

All you keep doing is re-confirming what I already know that you apologetics always twist words around in both the NT and OT just so it will fit your Jesus even though Mormons and Muslims do the same thing. But of course you know those guys ARE wrong and you are right.

It sounds like you are trying to say that people wouldn't need to pick up wood on the sabbath because god would protect them and make them not feel cold. If that is the case, god would make Jesus not be hungry. Then Jesus wouldn't have to work on the sabbath.

You pay about as much attention to the real words in your bible as you do to my name. It's Kilgore not Kilmore.


That is a perfect review of what you christian apologetics do. Saying Jesus obeyed the law and saying that after he died the law was no longer valid is twisting the word of the Hebrew god and making it invalid. It is a joke saying the law ever ends. That is just garbage they threw into the NT because thay didn't want to follow the law anymore. The Torah said the law must be followed forever. The law cannot be "fulfilled".The Jews were to be circumcised forever as a physical sign of the covenant.
Genesis 17:13-14 says:
Note that it says physical sign. What Paul says about being "circumcised in the heart" is completely contrary to this. The whole idea that christians don't follow the Torah law just shows that they are just as invalid to Judaism as you guys say the Mormons and Muslims are. Jesus said in Matthew 23:1-4 that you must follow the orders of the teachers of the law. The teachers of the law said he worked on the Sabbath and that he was a heretic. Therefore Jesus must have worked on the Sabbath and he must be a heretic.

If someone today was performing miracles and saying the NT was "fulfilled", using his "holy book" as proof of it, you and every christian would say he was a devil or something. But Jesus does the exact same thing and the Jews knew he was wrong, but now you guys worship him as god. :notworthy :notworthy

YHWHtruth

Alas! Will Mr KILGORE please stop appealing to this fallacious notion or, at least, try to demonstrate its supposed veracity? You can't keep making an unsupported claim and expect us to accept your word for it. Now please demonstrate by examples and substantial linguistic data why I should believe what you say.

Call it circumstantial _ad hominem_ if you like. My father always taught me to tell it like it T-I-IS and sometimes I just cannot hold back from calling it like I see it. The fact is that you are guilty of question begging and asserting, in a most egregious
way.

You say I fail to read your name, since I called you kilmore, instead of kilgore. Yet you fail to read my post above:

As the context of Mark 7:19 shows, Pharisees and scribes had taken issue with Jesus because his disciples ate with “defiled hands, that is, unwashed ones,” while the religious leaders ‘did not eat unless they washed their hands up to the elbows.’ (Mark 7:1-3) Jesus duly exposed them for holding to man-made traditions while ignoring weighty principles of God, such as caring for their parents. He continued: “There is nothing from outside a man that passes into him that can defile him; but the things that issue forth out of a man are the things that defile a man.”—Mark 7:5-15.

<<<<It sounds like you are trying to say that people wouldn't need to pick up wood on the sabbath because god would protect them and make them not feel cold. If that is the case, god would make Jesus not be hungry. Then Jesus wouldn't have to work on the sabbath. >>>>>

I never said their senses would be dull to the affect of not feeling the temperature.

Your conjecture, again, does not apply.

<<<<That is a perfect review of what you christian apologetics do. Saying Jesus obeyed the law and saying that after he died the law was no longer valid is twisting the word of the Hebrew god and making it invalid. It is a joke saying the law ever ends. That is just garbage they threw into the NT because thay didn't want to follow the law anymore. The Torah said the law must be followed forever. The law cannot be "fulfilled".The Jews were to be circumcised forever as a physical sign of the covenant.
Genesis 17:13-14 says: >>>

Speaking of garbage When one mixes garbage with something to begin with, regardless of what they add to it later, it will still be garbage, at least in part. Thus the saying, "Garbage in, garbage out," or GIGO. Keep free from GIGO Kilgore

Your posts have not only contained substantial quantities of bad arguments, unbiblical distinctions and definitions (which are presented as if they were biblical), but you have also mixed in a good dose of personal attacks. In my opinion, this attitude began to surface when he was exposed for making a very basic error in reading one of my arguments, which he then tried to justify by attacking the cotext of my argument, but in the process he only succeeded in further embarrassing himself. Thus, his personal attacks have continued.

I have yet to see this so called "twisting" that I am accused of.
The whole purpose for the DIETARY AND SANITARY LAWS served to keep the Israelites separate from pagan nations, to promote cleanliness and health, and to remind them of their holiness to God; Le 19:2

<<<<Note that it says physical sign. What Paul says about being "circumcised in the heart" is completely contrary to this. The whole idea that christians don't follow the Torah law just shows that they are just as invalid to Judaism as you guys say the Mormons and Muslims are. Jesus said in Matthew 23:1-4 that you must follow the orders of the teachers of the law. The teachers of the law said he worked on the Sabbath and that he was a heretic. Therefore Jesus must have worked on the Sabbath and he must be a heretic.

If someone today was performing miracles and saying the NT was "fulfilled", using his "holy book" as proof of it, you and every christian would say he was a devil or something. But Jesus does the exact same thing and the Jews knew he was wrong, but now you guys worship him as god>>>>

On another note, might I suggest that you lay off the Mormons and Muslims? I think you can make your point clear without making negative references to groups that do not share your presuppositions.

Mark 2:27,_28: “[Jesus] went on to say to them: ‘The sabbath came into existence for the sake of man, and not man for the sake of the sabbath; hence the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath.’”

Jesus knew that Jehovah had instituted the Sabbath as a sign between God and Israel, and that it was meant to bring them relief from their labors. Jesus also was aware that his own death would provide the basis for setting aside the Mosaic Law as having found its fulfillment in him. He appreciated that the Law, with its sabbath requirement, provided “a shadow of the good things to come.” (Heb. 10:1; Col. 2:16,_17) In connection with those “good things” there is a “sabbath” of which he is to be Lord.

As Lord of lords, Christ will rule all the earth for a thousand years. (Rev. 19:16; 20:6; Ps. 2:6-8) While on earth, Jesus mercifully performed some of his most amazing works of healing on the Sabbath, thus demonstrating the kind of relief that he will bring to people out of all nations during his Millennial Reign. (Luke 13:10-13; John 5:5-9; 9:1-14) Those who appreciate the real meaning of the Sabbath will have opportunity also to benefit from that “sabbath” rest.

Jesus’ lineage lays the first basis for identifying him as the promised Messiah. Jehovah had told His servant Abraham that the promised Seed would come from his family. Abraham’s son Isaac, Isaac’s son Jacob, and Jacob’s son Judah each received a similar promise. (Genesis 22:18; 26:2-5; 28:12-15; 49:10) The line of the Messiah’s descent was narrowed down centuries later when King David was told that his family line would produce this One. (Psalm 132:11; Isaiah 11:1,_10) The Gospel accounts of Matthew and Luke confirm that Jesus came through that family line. (Matthew 1:1-16; Luke 3:23-38) Though Jesus had many bitter enemies, none of them challenged his well-publicized line of descent. (Matthew 21:9,_15) Clearly, then, his lineage is beyond question. However, the Jews’ family records were destroyed when_the Romans sacked Jerusalem in 70_C.E. In later times, no one could ever prove a claim to be the promised Messiah.

I worship Jesus as God?

Jesus certainly occupies a pivotal role in true worship, one worthy of honor and respect. (2_Corinthians 1:20, 21; 1_Timothy 2:5) He is the only way through which we are able to approach Jehovah God. (John 14:6) Accordingly, true Christians do well to direct their worship only to Jehovah God, the Almighty.

Jesus himself, however, directed attention and worship only to Jehovah God. For example, when prodded to do an act of worship to the Devil, Jesus said: “It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.” (Matthew 4:10) Later Jesus instructed his disciples: “Do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One.”—Matthew 23:9.

Some may counter, ‘does the Bible not indicate that we must also worship Jesus? Did Paul not say at Hebrews 1:6: “Let all the angels of God worship him [Jesus]”?’ (King_James Version) How can we understand this scripture in the light of what the Bible says about idolatry?

First, we have to understand what Paul meant here by worship. He used the Greek word pro·sky·ne´o. Unger’s Bible Dictionary says that this word literally means to ‘kiss the hand of someone in token of reverence or to do homage.’ An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, by W. E. Vine, says that this word “denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to man ._._. or to God.” In Bible times pro·sky·ne´o often included literally bowing down before someone of high stature.

Consider the parable Jesus gave of the slave who was unable to repay a substantial sum of money to his master. A form of this Greek word appears in this parable, and in translating it the King James Version says that “the servant therefore fell down, and worshipped [form of pro·sky·ne´o] him [the king], saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.” (Matthew 18:26; italics ours.) Was this man committing an idolatrous act? Not at all! He was merely expressing the kind of reverence and respect due the king, his master and superior.

Such acts of obeisance, or expressions of respect, were fairly common in the Orient of Bible times. Jacob bowed down seven times upon meeting his brother, Esau. (Genesis 33:3) Joseph’s brothers prostrated themselves, or did obeisance, before him in honor of his position at the Egyptian court. (Genesis 42:6) In this light we can better understand what happened when the astrologers found the young child Jesus, whom they recognized as “the one born king of the Jews.” As rendered in the King James Version, the account tells us that they “fell down, and worshipped [pro·sky·ne´o] him.”—Matthew 2:2, 11.

Clearly, then, the word pro·sky·ne´o, rendered “worship” in some Bible translations, is not reserved exclusively for the type of adoration due Jehovah God. It can also refer to the respect and honor shown to another person. In an effort to avoid any misunderstanding, some Bible translations render the word pro·sky·ne´o at Hebrews 1:6 as “pay him homage” (New Jerusalem Bible), “honour him” (The Complete Bible in Modern English), “bow down before him” (Twentieth Century New Testament), or “do obeisance to him” (New World Translation).

Max

Calzaer

Isn't that exactly what you expect us to do when it comes to God?

YHWHtruth

Cal I dont expect you do do anything.

Max

Kilgore Trout

YHWHtruth:

First off I did not insult Muslims and Mormons. I said christians say they are invalid religions. If you are not one of those christians, then fine, but surely you are aware that most fundamentalist christians think all other religions are invalid. The same goes for Jesus being god. Almost every christian thinks Jesus is god. If you don't then I'm sorry for implying you do.

Most of your arguments to support the validity of the NT come from the NT itself. I am pointing out that anybody can start a new religion and validate it by using quotes from their own "holy book".
You are constantly quoting Jesus with his "excuses" why he doesn't obey the law. Any false prophet would claim to have reasons for the wrong things he did. There is no indication in the OT that the law is temporary. Saying it is a "Shadow of things to come" is an insult to the Hebrew god. He said to follow the law FOREVER! Only people who are brainwashed into assuming the NT is correct no matter what would believe it was temporary.

Show me quotes from the OT that says the law is meant to be temporary. Where in the OT does it say that men will no longer have to be circumcised?

I find it amazing that you claim I don't read your posts when you won't answer most of my points. You just pick out a small part that you think is an easy target and ignore the rest.

NOGO

unsupported claims ?

If you make statements like this then the rest of us will expect the same from you.