Tarnaak

Probablly an atheist, lol. Just kidding...

The freewill discussion stems from the predestination discussion.
Predestination according to some is that God determined in the beginning what would happen to each of us. Thus, God has taken away our freewill and people use that as an excuse to rebel against God. "Why should I worship someone that makes me worhship him, he has to earn it" they would say.

I personally find it hard to imagine a loving, merciful and gracious God saying that Joe is predestined to hell, while John is predestined to Heaven. This may have been the case in OT times, but becomes even more unimaginable after Christs death. If predestination as viewed above were correct, then Christs death meant nothing. (However, in the grand scheme of things, IF this were true then God being the Creator of all things, would have that option to do so, after all he is God).

IMHO, predestination means that God has foreknowledge of what will happen with each of us. What choices we make being the actual topic of discussion, I submit that even though God knows the outcome, we as individual beings made the choices without interference from God. Freewill then, is an individuals right to choose without interference. God does not interfere in giving us a choice. Yes, he knows what choice we will make, but God does not make us, make a choice.

You as atheists have been given information about God. You made a choice to refute it. You rationalize your choice with scientific data to make yourselves feel better about not wanting to believe in God.

As many arguments as I have read on this forum, it still comes down to making a choice. You either choose to believe or you choose not to. Even if you say you don't choose, you still have chosen by proxy.

Rational or critical thinking when done by humans is just that. Human rationalization or human critical thinking. It is not Godly thinking. When one is open to God's Spirit, God will help them see. "Knock and the door will be opened, ask and it shall be given you".

But you say "I can't believe because the data says he doesnt exsist". God is not data, He's Spirit. "But he should make it easier to believe." Why? Testing of one's spirit is stated throughout the Bible. The purpose of which is to root out anything unclean. Only that which is Holy can enter the Kingdom of God.

Like I said, I can see where Freewill is freewill. But you cannot. You are blinded spiritually. You are not "choosen". (a whole nother topic) ugh why not.

Choosen does not mean that God chooses anyone for heaven or hell. Yes, he does choose people for certain things, but not specifically for heaven or hell. When one is choosen, it means that the Spirit of God is with you. You make a choice to obey God, and God chooses to impart his Spirit on you. You are now choosen.

Luiseach

Hmmm...a strange interpretation of the atheistic stance...are you saying that atheists use science as a security-blanket?
:-D

Agreed.

If we, as humans, can only think in human terms, how do we know, as human beings, what 'Godly thinking' is like? Who is qualified to know God's ways of thinking except God?

Okay, let's see if we can get this straight:

God doesn't choose anyone to go to Heaven or Hell.

Nope....let me try that again:

God does choose people to whom he imparts his 'Spirit.'

The Predestination Two-Step... ;-)

Biff the unclean

The freewill discussion stems from the predestination discussion.
My problem with the biblical God and free will is the bible. I can find God condemning free will, punishing man for exercising his free will, circumventing and impeding man's free will. No where can I find him honoring it.
It's easy enough to find passages in the bible that are clear about man being predestined. But the free will argument is used against predestination has a God with a different agenda than the biblical god has.
Thus, God has taken away our freewill and people use that as an excuse to rebel against God. "Why should I worship someone that makes me worhship him, he has to earn it" they would say. I'm afraid that you are so mired in your own mythology that you are twisting what the Atheists are saying to you to reflect your own prejudices.
We are not rebelling against God. There is no God to rebel against. What is being pointed out to you, but apparently not clearly enough, are the flaws in your mythology. In this case mutually contradictory attributes are being assigned to God. This shows that the God is a literary character and not a real being. This contradiction is nothing more than sloppy editing. The God is a fictional character written about by different authors. Whoever combined their work neglected to write out the two contradictory personalities.

I personally find it hard to imagine a loving, merciful and gracious God saying that Joe is predestined to hell, while John is predestined to Heaven.

If predestination as viewed above were correct, then Christs death meant nothing.
When they are filming movies they have a person whose entire job is continuity The Continuity Person's job is to make sure that if the hero has a hat on in shots one, three and four that he has the same exact hat on in shot two.
The bible could have used some one like that.

However, in the grand scheme of things, IF this were true then God being the Creator of all things, would have that option to do so, after all he is God
When my son was a little boy he and his friends all collected action figures. They would argue for hours over what superpowers each had. God is just another fictional superhero with super powers. To argue what options he had is the same as arguing over red vs. green kryptonite.

IMHO, predestination means that God has foreknowledge of what will happen with each of us.
And the novel he appears is does say that he has that superpower

What choices we make being the actual topic of discussion, I submit that even though God knows the outcome, we as individual beings made the choices without interference from God.
The problem with this is that you are saying "Look nothing is interfering with us!! That's God not doing something because he's so nice!" you are ascribing nothing as being something.
Freewill then, is an individuals right to choose without interference.
Which is exactly what you would expect the conditions to be if there were no God. But not if the biblical God existed.
God does not interfere in giving us a choice.
Superman isn't interfering either. He never lifts a finger. He doesn't because he can't--he's fictitious. His story says that he wages a constant battle for truth, justice and the American way. But in real life he can't do a thing. Gods story line also says that he is constantly busy doing super things. But in real life his actions are indistinguishable from those of Superman. He does nothing.
You as atheists have been given information about God. You made a choice to refute it. You rationalize your choice with scientific data to make yourselves feel better about not wanting to believe in God.
Stuff and nonsense. Who told you such silliness?
I for one did not choose to refute the existence of God. I was very religious. So religious that when an Atheist told me "It's a good thing you got faith cause you ain't got proof" that I was so incensed that I went right up to find the proof. I search earnestly for years. But my religion had instilled in me a love of the truth and this basic truthfullness forced me to conceed that there was no proof whatsoever.

As many arguments as I have read on this forum, it still comes down to making a choice.
The choice is "will you make claims that you can't support about God, or will you be honest." I chose personal integrity.

Rational or critical thinking when done by humans is just that.
Human rationalization or human critical thinking. It is not Godly thinking.
Are you now claiming that you aren't a human? Or are you claiming that you are not thinking for yourself?
When one is open to God's Spirit, God will help them see. "Knock and the door will be opened, ask and it shall be given you". Since the over whelming majority of Atheists on this site have at one time been open to God's Ghost and have "knocked" (in my case I pounded away for years) we are proof that this claim is false.

But you say "I can't believe because the data says he doesnt exsist". God is not data, He's Spirit.
If you will look up a translation of the original meaning of the word Spirit you will find that it is a persons breath. That's why some translation of Gen 1 say God's breath was upon the waters and others say his spirit. It's a superstitious explanation of the respiratory system left over from the late stone age/ early bronze age.
"But he should make it easier to believe." Why? Testing of one's spirit is stated throughout the Bible.
How do you know that this isn't an intelligence test and not a magic breath test? If it is, you have failed.
The purpose of which is to root out anything unclean. Only that which is Holy can enter the Kingdom of God.
Unless they have green kryptonite in a lead box.

Like I said, I can see where Freewill is freewill. But you cannot. You are blinded spiritually. You are not "choosen". (a whole nother topic) ugh why not.
Translation: Nay nay a boo boo!!! I'm better than you-ooo
I don't doubt that you are better than me, but is it polite to rub it in?

Choosen does not mean that God chooses anyone for heaven or hell. Yes, he does choose people for certain things, but not specifically for heaven or hell.
Just as you've chosen to ignore the parts of the bible that say that he does that very thing.
When one is choosen, it means that the Spirit of God is with you. You make a choice to obey God, and God chooses to impart his Spirit on you. You are now choosen.
William Manchester who was (is?) Professor of History Emeritus at Wesleyan U wrote a wonderful book you should read. It's called A World Lit Only By Fire Basically it's about how the Middle Ages--the Dark Ages--of fear and superstition gave way to the Renaissance and the modern age. You really need to understand that the Middle Ages are over.

AJ113

You said:

Since you do not have a mindset with God (Holy Spirit), of course the Bible seems flawed to you.

This is a logical fallacy, specifically the logical fallacy named "non-sequitur" which means, loosely, "does not follow."

Your argument is that my lack of a mindset with god leads to the bible appearing flawed to me.

This is clearly incorrect:
I do not have a mindset with god - correct.
It follows from this non-mindset that the bible seems flawed - incorrect, because:

1. The bible does not SEEM flawed, it clearly IS flawed.
2. In any case, the flawed nature of the bible does not FOLLOW as a result of not having a mindset with god. The opinion that the bible is flawed follows as a result of a reasoned examination of the book in question.

Sabine Grant

Hello Biff.... I think the confusion may come from the fact that most christians believe that they have the ability to choose to follow Christ or not follow Christ. The choice remains an act of free will from the human perspective. But in God's " eyes" only one is the right and rewarded choice for mankind. In that last notion, there is no real freedom from consequences imposed by God. It is then considered as an act of disobedience to God and men's will of action or choices is not honored by God. So I agree with you that the term " free will" is misrepresentative of how men relate their choices to God's Will.
What is interesting is the fact that God made Adam and Eve aware of the existence of the Tree of Knowledge. There would have been no dilemna of choice in their minds had God not made them aware of its existence.
Can we consider that God actualy created the concept of choosing between His Will and ours? and with that notion, the concept of personal accountability in our choices?
Take the laws of the land.... we are told not to drive above that speed limit clearly indicated on a sign. However, we still have the choice to abide or not abide to that law. Consequences will follow with the ticket handed out to us by a law enforcement officer. Do you feel that your choice of action is not depending on your will to abide or not abide to speed limit restrictions?

Sabine Grant

I thought that I would open that question not just to Biff but to all involved.... looking forward to comments.

Javaman

Unfortunately, your question simply re-opens an oft-tackled subject. Without knowledge of good and evil (right and wrong), how could Adam & Eve know that eating of the fruit was "wrong"? Jehovah God said not to but that is irrelevant without any concept that doing so has any consequences... well I suppose that God said that Adam would die if he ate it. If Adam knew what death was and actually believed Jehovah, I doubt he'd have eaten.

And another can of worms gets opened (again, sigh)... because Adam did not die on that day as was prophesied:

GENESIS 2
17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'


... but, as has been addressed over and over in these fora... did God really mean NOW or that death is now an option open to Adam and he had previously been immortal. I don't know if anyone really wants to go into this again.

Sabine Grant

Thank you for your reply..... I recall one explaination I read in regard with the " death" of Adam that it had to do with spiritual death not physical death. But you are right.... better not to get into that again.

My question was moreso whether or not the word " will" applies to men's ability to make a choice. And if we can consider room for the notion of God allowing that choice to be regardless of the consequences He brings about .
Obviously there is no real freedom as consequences will follow the choice God does not approve of......
But is there the ability to exercise our will ? not the right.... the ability?

Radorth

We're saying one can remain as stupid, rebellious and unprincipled as they like, but there is a price to pay. You can call it "honoring" free will. I would call it "allowing" free will. He doesn't "honor" bad choices. Please do not misrepresent what is being said.

Nevertheless, I do agree that our "free will" is much limited by culture and other forces outside our control. As I have said, the only totally free will choice I was ever given was to accept Christ or not. I think that is the one thing God made sure of, and I believe every person will be offered the choice at some point, even in the next life for those who can rightly claim ignorance.

Several times I have pointed out that some will still reject Christ, as the professor did in C.S. Lewis' allegory of a man who sees into heaven and chooses to get back on the bus to hell anyway because "everybody has tenure" in heaven. He thinks only professors should have tenure there. Our pride, or lack of it, determines our destiny, and I see nothing in the Bible to make me believe anything else.

Does God know who will reject him? That I don't know. I only know that everyone will get a chance to repent, and that some simply will not, and have even said in this forum they will not, no matter what God does.

So the practical and meaningful question is this. If you do at some point get an opportunity to have every sin freely forgiven, what will you say? I'm afraid "I have no sin, and if I did, it's not my fault" will be the answer some give. And even then they will be judged by their own rules and principles- in short, by how they judged and condemned others. That is why I condemn no one, not even Hitler.

Rad

Biff the unclean

Hello Biff.... Hi Sabine, I hope I don't upset you again. I'll try to watch my P's & Q's.
I think the confusion may come from the fact that most christians believe that they have the ability to choose to follow Christ or not follow Christ. The choice remains an act of free will from the human perspective. But in God's " eyes" only one is the right and rewarded choice for mankind.
That's true, the novel "The Bible" does say that so they are correct. However the same book says that "salvation" does not come from a persons deeds, 'least they boast', but by grace alone. This "grace' is something vague and magical that only comes from the God and not people. This completely contradicts the "act" of deciding to follow Jesus being necessary and makes "free will" superfluous.
Yet the bible is quite clear on both points. And both points contradict one another. Why is this so? Poor copy editing.
This poor editing shows the bible up as being a work of fiction.

What is interesting is the fact that God made Adam and Eve aware of the existence of the Tree of Knowledge. There would have been no dilemna of choice in their minds had God not made them aware of its existence.
Can we consider that God actualy created the concept of choosing between His Will and ours? and with that notion, the concept of personal accountability in our choices?
This would not be a problem in the earlier "Pagan" versions of this same story. But when the Jews retold it they changed it and made it ridiculous.
The magic forbidden fruit gives the eater the ability to tell the difference between good and evil. In the Pagan version it contained the knowledge of "culture" instead. Genesis makes it quite clear that Adam & Eve did not have that ability, and clearly says that having that ability would make them like gods.
The ability to tell the difference between good & evil, right & wrong IS "free will." Then in the Jewish version of the story the God punishes them because they chose evil. They used their free will to do wrong. Except they couldn't possibly have done that according to the same story because they didn't know what evil was, and so couldn't possibly have "chosen" to be evil.
Again, this blatant contradiction is only poor copy editing. A good editor could have fixed this before it ever hit the presses

Take the laws of the land....
Yes do take the laws of the land. If their lawyer can prove that the defendant is unable to tell the difference between right and wrong, good & evil they are not sent to prison to be punished. Rather they are sent to a mental institution to be helped.
This would imply that our legal system is more humane that God.

Do you feel that your choice of action is not depending on your will to abide or not abide to speed limit restrictions?
But I know the difference between right and wrong. I can tell good from evil.
If the arresting office pulled me in because because I wfghted instead of jkletred then I would be in the same boat as Adam and Eve because I haven't a clue as to what these concepts mean.

Can we consider that God actualy created the concept of choosing between His Will and ours? and with that notion, the concept of personal accountability in our choices?
This can be reduced to, let's say, I pull a gun and stick it to your head and demand "your money or your life." I am honoring your free will; I am presenting you with a choice. However if your free will runs counter to my desires I'll blow the top of your head off. So in reality I am circumventing and proscribing your free will by my threat of violence. This means that I am a criminal and an evil person.
The novel "The Bible" makes the God character out to be even more evil. As a robber and murder I could only steal from you and kill you. The God character tortures you in flames that burn yet consume not forever. This makes him out to be infinitely more evil than Biff the murder and thief is. But the same novel claims that the God character is good and loving. Again poor copy editing. The character has different and diametrically opposed personalities in different parts of the same story.

There's nothing "deep", and "mysterious", and "unknowable by mere human intelligence" going on here. The book is just poorly written. It's funny, if a paperback mystery had the same problems with plot and character development you would toss the unfinished book on the shelf and never bother with it again.