Christian

Christianity is both simple and deep. It's so simple that a child can understand it, but so deep that you could spend a lifetime probing just one of its mysteries without exhausting the material.

Christianity is about encountering the living God, not about whether a plan is "clearly spelled out."

The temporary divisions within the body of Christ are truly tragic. I have no satisfying explaination for that.

Respectfully,

Christian

Christian

Mageth,

Death does not mean that you cease to exist. Everyone is going to pop up again.

Respectfully,

Christian

Christian

Rad,

I was refering to the temporal fleshly existence here on earth. The life we have been given is a very precious thing. But not even in the same ball park as the temporal fleshly existence of God.

Respectfully,

Christian

Treacle Worshipper

I realise this wasn't addressed to me, but I think you must be using a very specific definition of "death", Christian.
The Oxford Pocket Dictionary: death: n. dying, final cessation of vital functions; being killed or killing, event which ends life; ceasing to be, annihilation.
The Collins ED has pretty much the same definition. This sounds pretty final to me. What definition do you use that makes you think we'll "pop up again"?
(Maybe we'll be jack-in-the-boxes in the next life )
TW

Mageth

Death does not mean that you cease to exist. Everyone is going to pop up again.

What Treacle Worshipper said.

Everyone and everything I've ever known to die stayed that way. Until people start popping back up again, "cease to exist" is what "dead" means to me. You'll have to find another word to describe what you're talking about. "Terminator", perhaps? Or maybe "Jason"?

christ-on-a-stick

Christian,

More on your other responses later, but to address your "sacrifice" argument:

Actually, yes, I would say that anything given up temporarily is not technically a sacrifice, although we often use the word in a casual sense. However, in your analogy - I would say that it IS a sacrifice. Why? YOUR "loss" (of your time with your family) is not temporary . You're not going to get that time back, are you? It's given up permanently.

Conversely, what is it that Jesus supposedly sacrificed? His life. But wait... he got it back, right? So how does that qualify as a sacrifice??? Add to this the fact that Christians love to talk about what an "ultimate" sacrifice it was.... pardon ME, but Bull Hockey I'd consider the sacrifices of everyday people who have given their lives to save others a lot more "ultimate" than that, considering they don't pop back up out of the grave after a couple days.

More later...

Mageth

Conversely, what is it that Jesus supposedly sacrificed? His life. But wait... he got it back, right?

Technically, Jesus only temporarily "sacrificed" the man/body part of the ManGod symbiosis. The God part never died, unless one says God can be killed.

christ-on-a-stick

Christian,

I wrote: To what higher authority is God subject to here?

You responded: Himself. His own nature. He cannot be self contradictory.

Let me ask another way. Who determined what “his nature” would be? If his nature is self-determined, he is capable of making it anything he wants, including letting “sin go unpunished”, or perhaps “punished” by some less draconian means than eternal torment.

Additionally, I wrote: Furthermore, if God himself defines what is "just", what is stopping him from defining justice in a way that could accept a different "solution"???

To which you responded, Although I can see both sides of that philosophical argument, my conclusion is that justice is not an arbitrary decision of God. He has His reasons. He has chosen to be good, not to create good. It is His nature to make that choice, fortunately.

Perhaps I am not reading this correctly but it doesn’t seem to answer my questions.

How about a simple yes or no to this question; "If God himself defines what is “just”, would it be possible for him to define justice in a such way that bloodshed or eternal suffering would never be required as a solution to sin?”

If your answer is “yes, but he has his reasons”, I would respectfully submit that it seems curious that you hold God to a lesser standard of behavior than humans, when it comes to cruelty, violence and bloodshed being acceptable and good.

Christian

On the definition of death:

Fair enough. I was thinking of death as basically "all biological activities and functions cease." I need to define my terms more clearly.

To confuse things further, the Bible talks about a second birth and a second death. Those who are born twice die once, and those who are born once die twice.

How about these definitions for the purpose of this conversation:

Physical birth - the standard means of entry into the world.

Spiritual birth - a supernatural work of the Sprit where a person is fundamentally changed inwardly.

Physical death - all biological activities and functions cease, and the body begins to decompose.

Spiritual death - a.k.a. the "Second Death." Eternal seperation from God.

Annihilation - ceasing to be.

Terminator - one of the best movie series ever.

Jason - one of the most stupid movie series ever.

People who are born physically and spiritually experience physical death but not the second death. People who are only born physically experience physical death and the second death.

Jesus, who was physically and spiritually alive experienced physical death. He will not experience the second death.

Noone will cease to exist. Ever.

The point of time between physical birth and physical death could be called "physical life." A physical life is something that has great inherent value. The physical life of Jesus is infinitely valuable.

Respectfully,

Christian

Christian

On what Jesus sacrificed by dying:

By dying, Jesus sacrificed His physical life. He did not sacrifice His existence, He sacrificed the physical human experience that we are all experiencing right now. He did not forfeit any future existance of a physical nature. He sacrificed His "temporal fleshly existence."

According to scripture every person will be physically resurrected in the future. Those who have previously been transformed inwardly will be transformed outwardly, but all people without exception will physically pop out of the grave (now that I think about it Enoch and Elisha are exceptions - but they are strange cases that don't really apply to this conversation).

As you pointed out, time spent in this life is something that you don't get back. Our decisions in this life have permanent consequences in the next. Jesus, like all humans, only had one shot at experiencing the temporal fleshly existence here on earth. Having His physical life cut short and taken from Him violently was definitely a sacrifice. Even though He was resurrected later as all people will be.

Mageth,

Agreed. I would elaborate though that Jesus did not cease to be human just because He died physically. He was still human when He was absent from His body for 3 days, and He was still human after His resurrection when He was demonstrating the new improved supercharged model of the human body that all who have been born again will receive some day.

And now I must leave, but I'll BE BACK!

Respectfully,

Christian