nogods4me

how convenient the situational amnesia with which these wacky xtians are empowered.

what about the commandment about only one god? is that religious?
how about the one about graven images of god? is that religious?
how about the one about the sabbath? is that religious?

you want to post something non-religious in the schools that will teach children something, how about the Constitution?, or just the Bill of Rights. Children could learn far more from those things than they could from the 10 c's.

and the one forbidding coveting goes against everything that drives the economy of this country.

puhleeze, as for out of context quotes, I suggest you reed common sense, and not critiques of it. or Jefferson's letters

it is obvious that many of the founders are not what most folks today would consider a christian, these include, Jefferson, Paine, Franklin, and Washington. Does that mean they did not believe in some sort of god, not at all, it means they found the christian religion, with it's jesus as the son of god, and other stories, to be just that, stories, parables, which is what they were probably intended to be until a bunch of ignorant goatherds got ahold of them.

Rhaedas

Wow, that's a disturbing story, James. Makes me more concerned about my son, getting back into the public school system. I don't think he's made up his mind yet, being only 8, but he certainly has commented before about the ridiculousness of things like the flood story.

As others have said, in a public school where peer pressure is the rule, someone will notice if a kid doesn't participate in the PoA, or omits a part. Hopefully it doesn't escalate into Alonzo's story, but certainly the potential is there.

So I guess for an atheist/agnostic child, it's better to pretend you don't think a certain way, than to risk getting attacked for your beliefs. Unfortunately I remember all too well the awkward feeling I had in school, trying to either avoid conversations about religion, or just pretending I was baptist. It was just easier that way, and I wasn't mentally prepared to defend my doubts. How many atheists here were ever confronted with the question "What church do you go to?", the question that assumes and demands an answer.

Back on topic...Supreme Court be damned, you cannot tell me that making a child in school have to choose between outwardly lying for protection or risking potential confrontation about their beliefs is okay.

God on money is one thing, we're all adults at that point, and that's a different battle...forcing choices on kids is another.

Calzaer

Gee, I dunno... it might have something to do with the fact that when you say "Under God", you're not talking about MINE. Mine has cloven hooves and horns (no, NOT satan, you frigging symbol-biters).

Calzaer

Apparently, that wasn't worth responding to.

athee

man made up religions which hold that gods exist. So .... man made gods. Seems simple to me. Religion and gods are the same crock of shit, unless you're reading a good fantasy book. (the bible is NOT good fantasy)

Worldtraveller

I think that last statement should be edited to read "the bible is not good fantasy"

Cheers,
Lane

Leviathan

Look to any modern S. Ct. case on the EC for "establishment clause" issues. The same justices making those decisions, also have offered, albeit in dictum, that they believe the Pledge to be Constitutional.

Thus, I don't have the burden to showing you what is an EC issue: the Supreme Court has done that for you. But, I will offer my own subjective belief, that every utterance of the word "God" is not an establishment of religion. To rule otherwise is contrary to... simply everything this nation was founded on.

Calzaer

Leviathan, I'm not a lawyer. I'm a layman. All I'm asking for is an example of something that WOULD count as an establishment issue. Not in leagalese, but a plain-english newspaper-story type of situation. I can't read those decisions.. the individual words make sense, but stringing them together and trying to get meaning out of them makes my head explode. Can't someone boil it down for dumbasses like me? Or do you all just revel in your secret trade-language elitism?

Leviathan

EC issues:
1. Prayer in Public Schools
2. Prayer at high school graduation
3. Prayer at a football game
4. Support of faith-based schools (monetary funds)
5. School choice/vouchers for faith-based schools

What isn't an EC issue:
1. every single utterance of the world "God," such as is the quarter constitutional, is the Declaration of Independance constitutional, and, yes, is the Pledge constitutional?

xorbie

Here's my (an agnostic athiest) take on the thing. Saying the pledge of alleigence is not an issue for me at all, with or without under God in it. Maybe this is because I had to go through mandatory prayer at my private Jewish high school for a while despite the fact that even at the time (I switched schools when I was 13, am now 18) I was no theist, but I see just saying those two words as no big deal. Now if the thing read "I pledge allegiance to the Mormon Church, and know that I will go to hell if I don't believe in God. Amen." I could understand the gripe, but not under these circumstances.

I am not realy sure that the constitution is against any mention of God in the Pledge, and am pretty sure this wasn't what the laws were aiming at in any case. And as far as the argument about simply being offended by the words, I am sure a racist person would be offended by the phrase "with liberty for all"... but no lost tears for him. And I'm sure if he came out and said "all you damn [insert racial group here], go back home!" he might get his ass kicked outside (as well he should).