Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RAFH · 09-04-2007, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gawen

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAFH

I wonder who got the other glove?

Michael Jackson

Eeeewwww!

Thor will be moving out immediately.

Spherical Time · 09-04-2007, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuwanda

Wow... I just don't know what to say... I've believed in God, I've seen miracles and healings with my own eyes, I've personally seen hundreds of people's lives changed through the power of God, fathers and mothers who've learned to love their spouse more, children more, escape drugs and alcohol addictions, hate, unforgiveness, adultury, theft, and untold stories of heroism, courage, and love. But then, I visited this website and I was overcome with the power of the accusation. I'm a changed man. If God won't act when I tell Him to and do what I tell Him to then to hell with the whole bit.

He's not my monkey anymore!

Specifically, we aren't testing God. We're testing you. Your bible says that if you have the faith of a mustard seed you can move a mountain.

If you really have faith in the correct deity then healing an amputee shouldn't be a problem for you.

If you can't do it we can safely assume that you're a false prophet and can ignore your claims.

Febble · 09-04-2007, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuwanda

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

David B (hopes you have read his links)

I read them.

Coldread - nope, the ones who prophesyed to me gave extremely specific information.

Hotread - nope, absolutely no one knew me, I didn't fill out any papers, and I still know the couple to this day. We are great friends.

Subjective Validation - nope, I was reluctant from the start to pray with anyone after my conversion to Christ. I just wanted to go home and be with my own thoughts. I had just come from Mormonism, I didn't trust anyone!

Faith Healing - The things I vaguely wrote of were things I witnessed. I saw a blind man healed, before my eyes, able to see again. I've seen tumors that were prayed for on one night and the next day completely shrivelled. I myself was instantanously healed of what I believe was a hernia (I have no medical records to prove it) after I layed hands on myself and prayed the prayer of faith. I went from doubled over on the ground after lifting weights with severe pain to standing up and walking, completely normal immediately after praying (my wife was the only witness). Some miracles I've heard of from others like my brother in law who, while on a mission in the Siberia, prayed for a woman who had a broken arm in a sling and was immediately healed before his eyes. My pastor's son was dying of lukemia and was healed, another pastor's son was clinically dead in the hospital and was raised to life after the prayer of faith (actually, that pastor's name is Andrew Wommack, now a popular minister and long time personal friend). I could go on and on but you've already quit reading.

Again, not trying to convince anyone of my experiences. You can take them or leave them, God remains the same.

My problem is that with stories like these is that they create more problems for the case for God than they solve. If God can heal so easily, why on earth doesn't he do it more often? It seems like if this is evidence for God at all, it's evidence for a very partial one. And therefore not for one that makes me very excited.

tezz · 09-04-2007, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuwanda

SNIP Faith Healing SNIP

my $0.02; what constantly surprises me is not that skeptics request some pretty basic information [like how do you know her arm was actually broken?]. But that you don't seem to be curious about these matters, just a basic level of curiosity leading to enquiries, like how do you know the blind man was actually blind? What kind of blindness was it; temporary, permanent? How long had he been blind, what was he doing at the meeting, was he brought there by an interested party? Did he get there of he's own accord... basic, basic questions, you don't really need to be skeptical to ask these questions, just curious as to not only what happened, but how and why did it happen... good old curiosity would make me ask all sorts of questions... did you? And if so maybe you could furnish us with some of those answers...

If you had any curiosity about these matters, you might already be able to answer the amputee question posted to you, because if the blind person had no eyes, and your god has contravened all the known physical laws and instantly grown a nice new set of eyes, then I'm sure that would be as good as growing an amputees legs back... but rather strangely you don't seem to have even basic information beyond 'they were cured'... where's your sense of curiosity, bugger being skeptical, just plain 'ol curiosity should lead you to ask questions!

Malintent · 09-05-2007, 08:44 AM

I suspect (and I hope nuwanda will correct me if I am mistaken) that if she were to ask these questions then she would be viewed as a skeptic and be ostracized from her group of 'believers' as 'amoral'. Then, she would become the reason that god doesn't answer her 'friends' prayers.. due to them harboring a non, or partial, believer.

Am I far off the mark?

Dace_Ender · 09-05-2007, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Specifically, we aren't testing God. We're testing you. Your bible says that if you have the faith of a mustard seed you can move a mountain.

If you really have faith in the correct deity then healing an amputee shouldn't be a problem for you.

If you can't do it we can safely assume that you're a false prophet and can ignore your claims.

Unfortunately I have it on good authority that faith is composed of electron neutrinos, and 'of a mustard seed' refers to having the same mass as your average BC mustard seed.
We tend to generate approximately ten neutrinos per hour of hard Believing where your entire mind is focusing on the FACT that God exists, and this only occurs if you actually believe it is a fact.
Unfortunately we use up approx. 1 neutrino or anti-neutrino per hour merely sustaining our own existence by believing in ourselves (belief in God generates stuff, belief in the material costs stuff). But it's ok you get approx 2 anti-neutrinos per hour of sleep. Which is of course why we sleep.

I know, I know, you're all shouting "50 trillion solar electron neutrinos pass through our body every second!", well duh, but you can't absorb solar neutrinos, they're almost completely 'noble' so to speak, like the gases, wrt to matter.

Which is to say; mustard seed =/ quantative or qualitative description of how much faith can move a mountain. So you could claim that people who can't move mountains clearly don't have that much faith, but you can't claim that people who clearly have that much faith are clearly wrong as they cannot move mountains.

Also, if people claim that their faith/prayer can make a quantative difference to the world around them on a regular or semi-regular basis, they'd better realise that unless they claim "God is watching, and stops doing it if you try to measure him" then their claims can be empirically tested, and if there is no empirical difference between the results for prayer/no prayer or belief/no belief, they it's not having the effect they claim it is, and they're wrong.

Though if we did test it and found out that prayer to the Christian God/Thor/Hermes/Buffy all had significant measurable effects if and only if performed by believers of certain denominations I think I'd laugh until I died a very happy man. Then would probably go to hell for laughing at God(s)(?)

ThorsHammer · 09-05-2007, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenesisNemesis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuwanda

I do dig a god with a hammer though.

I don't really do good with someone getting nailed on a Cross, though.

...By Thor's Hammer!

:Cheeky:

Hey! Don't use my name in vain!

ThorsHammer · 09-05-2007, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuwanda

Quote:

Originally Posted by GenesisNemesis

Nuwanda, is there any way any of us can observe a "mass healing"? Why does it seem so secretive?

People already have observed such things. The gospels are full of accounts of every kind of healing you can imagine, accounts that were testified to by hundreds and possibly thousands of witnesses (at times).

But, you've already discredited those witnesses, why do you ask for more? So you can discredit them as well?

I believe you will get to see for yourself something like a "mass healing" or at least a mass witnessing. Most Christians believe that day is fast approaching. Read Revelation for more info.

I've been to 3 of these so-called mass healings, where the bible thumper lays hands, or the bible on the sick. As a neutral objective observer, I was convinced that not only is it a scam, but it's all staged. There is countless evidence that these are setups and scams. Please do some research on the subject. Those that aren't in on it are influenced by and part of mass hysteria.

Spherical Time · 09-05-2007, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dace_Ender

Quote:

Specifically, we aren't testing God. We're testing you. Your bible says that if you have the faith of a mustard seed you can move a mountain.

If you really have faith in the correct deity then healing an amputee shouldn't be a problem for you.

If you can't do it we can safely assume that you're a false prophet and can ignore your claims.

Unfortunately I have it on good authority that faith is composed of electron neutrinos, and 'of a mustard seed' refers to having the same mass as your average BC mustard seed.
We tend to generate approximately ten neutrinos per hour of hard Believing where your entire mind is focusing on the FACT that God exists, and this only occurs if you actually believe it is a fact.
Unfortunately we use up approx. 1 neutrino or anti-neutrino per hour merely sustaining our own existence by believing in ourselves (belief in God generates stuff, belief in the material costs stuff). But it's ok you get approx 2 anti-neutrinos per hour of sleep. Which is of course why we sleep.

I know, I know, you're all shouting "50 trillion solar electron neutrinos pass through our body every second!", well duh, but you can't absorb solar neutrinos, they're almost completely 'noble' so to speak, like the gases, wrt to matter.

Which is to say; mustard seed =/ quantative or qualitative description of how much faith can move a mountain. So you could claim that people who can't move mountains clearly don't have that much faith, but you can't claim that people who clearly have that much faith are clearly wrong as they cannot move mountains.

Also, if people claim that their faith/prayer can make a quantative difference to the world around them on a regular or semi-regular basis, they'd better realise that unless they claim "God is watching, and stops doing it if you try to measure him" then their claims can be empirically tested, and if there is no empirical difference between the results for prayer/no prayer or belief/no belief, they it's not having the effect they claim it is, and they're wrong.

This is a hilarious response to my post. Kudos.

Quote:

Though if we did test it and found out that prayer to the Christian God/Thor/Hermes/Buffy all had significant measurable effects if and only if performed by believers of certain denominations I think I'd laugh until I died a very happy man. Then would probably go to hell for laughing at God(s)(?)

Probably, eh?

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09-05-2007, 08:44 AM	#65
Malintent Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: North Eastern United States Posts: 3,383	I suspect (and I hope nuwanda will correct me if I am mistaken) that if she were to ask these questions then she would be viewed as a skeptic and be ostracized from her group of 'believers' as 'amoral'. Then, she would become the reason that god doesn't answer her 'friends' prayers.. due to them harboring a non, or partial, believer. Am I far off the mark?

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