hezekiah jones

Very nice piece, Rational Ag.

And I always thought of Russell's little speech as something of a highbrow comedy routine. His examples of Jesus' emotional immaturity are pretty funny. Obviously Bertrand Russell had a hell of a lot more reasons not to be a Christian than the ones he mentioned there.

Leave it to Radorth to get all wound up over something like that, I guess.

Radorth

I don't fault Marx. Perhaps you should read my posts before commenting. I was merely taking BR's approach and throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I have said many times, and AGAIN ABOVE, that you ought not to blame the leader, including Marx, for the evils done by their followers. I do not call "no true Scotsman" a fallacy, so I'm afraid the only fallacy is with you.

I take it that now, unlike BR, you will no longer fault Jesus, and the apostles, and all Protestants for the works of bad Catholics or other ignorant Christians. Thank you.

Rad

Celsus

Hi Radorth,
Eh. Perhaps you'd like to read your words over again. Specifically, "What has Marx' atheist dogma brought to the world? Almost nothing but suffering and oppression." If you don't actually believe that, why did you write it?
That's correct. I don't even think Jesus said 90% of what's in the gospels, so I can hardly blame a semi-mythical person for the ills of Christianity. But I can blame the various institutions of the past for the blood on their hands. Like the Protestant missionaries who spied and informed on their "flock" for colonial governments. Pity Russell didn't know that.

Joel

Radorth

That's not what he said either, just like he never said not to work here:

So Paul was worrying too much when he made tents to support himself I suppose. Jesus tells his disciples not to "run after these things" but to "seek first the kingdom of God" which includes giving, which includes some kind of working or service. But I know you aren't interested in seeing anything but "contradictions." I doubt even the hypercritical Russell tortured those verses as you have.

Jesus was saying what you have to do to EARN heaven. He was asked what one must DO to inherit it, remember. Jesus told him what he had to do to be PERFECT and righteous himself. Of course any honest person knows it is futile to live up to all Jesus' commands, so we either ignore them, denigrate them, pretend we can, or admit we can't. Those who finally choose the latter are the more honest and thoughtful, and bound to become true Christians I believe.

Rad

Radorth

Re Celsus

I was clearly responding to Russell's sweeping assertions about how theist dogma produces oppression. I was not judging Marx so much as pointing out that theists and atheists are equally good at oppressing people. The dogma is not wrong by definition. It is those selfish people who interpret it wrongly and have not the spirit of it which do the evil. Marx had some great ideas, (some of which he stole from Jesus IMO) but he was naive. His great mistake was to assume wealthy people were all bad and peasants were all good, and that people willing to turn in their own mothers could be good "comrads." Communism had no mechanism for separating the sheep from the goats, as it were. In fact it tended to promote the goats and kill the sheep in many cases.

Ah, a 90% Jesus-myther. Well at least you don't have to accuse as many people of lying, redacting, inventing, colluding, copying, covering-up, manipulating, burning, adding unique detail, and killing off apostates all in one century. You still need to prove that though, or invent a less cynical theory, if you ever expect to sell like Wells, Durant, or Schonfield.

Shucks. When I read "That's correct" I thought for a half second you understood what I was saying.

Please supply a link. I believe this was a truly rare event. BTW, did the great Marx encourage turning in family members (by the millions), knowing they would be killed or go to Siberia, or their blood would turn Chinese rivers red?

Ironic color choice for the flags, no?

Rad

lpetrich

(Jesus Christ on deserting one's family...)

Radorth:
That's not what he said either,

Radorth does not seem to have read his Bible very well, because Jesus Christ had indeed said that he would come and break up everybody's families, that one of his followers ought not to bury his dead father, etc.

So Paul was worrying too much when he made tents to support himself I suppose.

Exactly right. According to JC's teachings, he had too little faith in god. According to the Gospels, JC had clearly stated that birds do not need to work for their living, implying that Paul didn't have to.

(Has sold everything he has and given the money to the poor.)

Jesus was saying what you have to do to EARN heaven. ...

And Radorth seems curiously unwilling to follow his Master's instructions here.

lpetrich

Radorth:
Ah, a 90% Jesus-myther. Well at least you don't have to accuse as many people of lying, redacting, inventing, colluding, copying, covering-up, manipulating, burning, adding unique detail, and killing off apostates all in one century. You still need to prove that though, if you ever expect to sell like Wells, Durant, or Schonfield.

Cry me a river.

None of the Jesus-myth speculations I've seen remotely resemble Radorth's crude caricature.

BTW, did the great Marx encourage turning in family members (by the millions), knowing they would be killed or go to Siberia, or their blood would turn Chinese rivers red?

Radorth continues to insinuate that atheists are necessarily Communists. And he refuses to consider the views of Ayn Rand, a fervently pro-capitalist atheist.

Celsus

Why don't you name some of these ideas Marx stole from Jesus? I'd like to add that early Christianity stole the idea of communal ownership and collectives from the Essenes.
Haha Radorth, you crack me up. Instead of begging the question, perhaps you could start a thread on the reliability of the gospels over in BC&A? I won't take the mythicist position, and I promise to give you a fair hearing before accusing your apostles of lying, redacting, inventing, colluding, copying, covering-up, manipulating, burning, adding unique detail, and killing off apostates all in one century. Interested?
Fraid I have no links, only books. I will try to get back to you on specific titles since they're somewhat buried in my old notes. I'm really looking forward to Ogbu Kalu's forthcoming Embattled Gods: Chrisitianization of Igboland, 1841-1991 though. Colonial missionary activities in West Africa were rife with spying, particularly in dealing with the more insurgent groups like the Ibos. It's not really something that you're likely to read in a missionary's memoirs. There's not much on West African colonial history on the net it seems.
He was already dead. He never saw a communist revolution. Not quite unlike Jesus.

Joel

Radorth

We won the Jesus-myther argument long ago. It was discovered JM'er's couldn't locate a shred of evidence for their assertions and premises, except what one expects to hear at witch trials. We did learn in one thread that Luke was a woman named Paul who wrote Acts around 150 AD. Sorry you missed it though, as it was most entertaining.

Must be a Protestant conspiracy. You're lucky you have the books though. I can't find one of Locke's most famous works either on the net or in print. I figure it's a vast atheist conspiracy, so I know how you feel.

Rad

Radorth

Yeah, me, Paul and a billion other Christians apparently can't read.

"Speculations" being the operative word. Well no, JM'er's aren't going to list all their cynical assumptions in one sentence, because JM'ers would appear what they are- mere cynics who are remarkably careless with facts and who slander hundreds of early Christians by default.

"Speculations" is all they have, yet their arrogance is such that some beat up on skeptics who ask questions. It's remarkable.

Rad