Jobar

Hi Vanderzyden- thank you for taking my advice.

I think your mentioning 'pure' atheism is a problem here. Read Clutch's post- the fourth one down- on <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000398&p=3" target="_blank">this thread.</a>

Trying to define atheism is a perennial topic.

You said-
"Allow me to rephrase the question for you:

Is it possible that your lack of (ignorance, indifference) is erroneous?"

Ah, as best I take your meaning here, you are asking if our knowledge- lack of ignorance, or care- lack of indifference, is wrong. Is that what you wanted to ask?

And as others have said, we do not all claim certain knowledge- I'd say that most of us don't look for absolute certainty on anything. Being a freethinker- another term often used for unbelievers- means we try to question *all* our knowledge, so dogma on atheism is kind of like a square circle.

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ

If I could get a hold of that thing...aaah, how sweet it would be to ruin the DeBeers.

At one time, the majority of humanity thought that everything revolved around the earth! And that it was supported variously by turtles, pillars, a giant, et al. What that be considered "denial"?
Lack of evidence? Nope. Trust me, it ain't out there. If you look for evidence, then you deny faith. Finding it merely goes to destroy that which you hold most dear. So to find evidence is to destroy the purpose of that evidence. Knock your ass out with evidence, buddy.

HRG

Only a minority believes that the Christian god exists.
Only a minority believes that the Allah exists.
Only a minority believes that Krishna exists.
etc.

Of course all those beliefs are mutually incompatible.

HRG.

Lord Asriel

Are you not making an Argument from Numbers here i.e. using the number of people holding a belief as evidence of its validity?

NFLP

"A widely believed lie is still a lie."

Perchance

Hi Vanderzyden,

I've mentioned to a lot of people in the past that I'm not absolutely certain that God does not exist, and had them (theist and atheist both) say, "Ah-ha! You must be a believer!"

I think turning it into a black-and-white issue only harms the dialogue. Of course, it is possible that I am wrong, or even unconsciously in denial while thinking consciously that I am not. But so far, it has proven to have no relevance to my daily life (intellectual life is another matter). If a god exists, but never shows itself in any way, never touches my life, never has any evidence for its existence, and never "inspires" me in such a way that I seek it, then can I really be said to ignore it, or is it ignoring me? If I am unconsciously in denial but believe consciously that I am not, how am I ever going to know?

I like to play with these questions, but, because I can't answer them one way or the other to anyone's satisfaction (least of all my own), they remain, for the most part, intellectual challenges and pleasures, not life-changing questions. I came to agnosticism relatively young, and have not swayed since then. I might, in the same way that I think a god might exist, but the answer to both is the same for me: it does not seem likely.

Of course, on some particular points where people actually do try to provide hard evidence (for example, creationism or the particular mix of "omni-" traits that make up the Christian God) I manifest weak or strong atheism. It all depends on the context of the discussion.

-Perchance.

[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: Perchance ]</p>

Aerik Von

That said it best imo...

Echo

Hi Vanderzyden,

I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you simply asking if atheists accept the possibility that they are wrong in concluding that a god probably does not exist? Sure..I'd be silly to say I could never be wrong about something. I've reached erroneous conclusions in the past and will probably do so again.

Is that what you wanted to know?

Vibr8gKiwi

Yes it is possible my lack of belief is incorrect.

Any of the thousands of imagined gods might exist, or any of the infinite unimagined but possible gods could exist--but I don't see any reason for believing that. Also there are a lot of reasons to disbelieve particular gods (such as the bible-god for example).

joedad

That's admirable, imho. And your statement implies the use of some methodology.

Methodologically speaking, maybe there is a distinction to be made and recognized between imagination and possibility. Are you saying that anything is possible if we can imagine it?

Go ahead and use your imagination to conjure up something that in your own opinion constitutes a fabulously ludicrous possibility. Maybe, for example, that we all have seven heads and seven brains, but that six are invisible and immortal, and are used to communicate with intelligences that created us as individuals prior to the Big Bang. That's a pretty weak example but cut me some slack, it's early and I worked late.

Anyway, why or how might you largely discount the possibility that you are multi headed, and I mean to the point where you personally discount the possibility entirely? Regardless of what example you decide upon, apply that same concluding sensation to myself and you'll know exactly how I feel about biblical/christian god concepts.

Would that mean that I am in "denial" about my possible multiheadedness? I suppose so, but then you'd be saying that everyone is in denial in some way or other, about some thing or other. Is that an important part of your ontology or your "worldview?" How and why?

Don't know exactly what you mean by a pure atheist either, unless you mean strong atheist.

joe

[ August 30, 2002: Message edited by: joedad ]</p>