LianaLi

Do jang is probably a self-referential name the students use to call the school where they are taught their martial arts. I've noticed that it seems to vary by art. In karate, it was called a dojo, in kung fu a kwoon.

-Liana

Edited to add something I've been meaning to get around to.

I've let this sit around the back of my mind for the last day or so, in the hopes that what bothered me about it would resolve itself into something I coud articulate better. So, the assumption behind acceptance of being treated in a certain way is to accept that any attractive woman who is outgoing is labled a flirt or promiscuous if she doesn't follow up on it. Hmm. Virgin/whore complex much? Double standards? There's so much to choose from here. I can accept that I haven't learned all the social subtexts that express interest and haven't learned how to avoid them. Or that I haven't yet learned to be firm enough in expressing "I just wanna be friends," the bane of every man's exsistence. I presume, that with time, I'll even grow used to the head swivels, bad lines, and the times people will hit on me, and be able to brush it off. But it smacks of a double standard where a not so attractive woman is labled as merely funny or entertaining, where as another woman possessing the same traits is labled as a tease or promicuous because of her looks.


-Liana

brighid

Do jang is the Korean equivalent of do jo and as I have primarily studied Hapkido and Tae Kwon Do (Korean martial arts) the only formal setting I have had aggressive, physical confrontations with men has been in a do jang.

Brighid

brighid

She should accept neither!! This is the double standard that women are so very sick and tired of. We can't allow ourselves to think this way about women, or allow our counterparts to make such baseless assumptions about women who don't conform to what society decides a woman should be.

LianaLi,

I empathize with you. I have received very similar treatment. I'm a whore ... why? Because I dare carry myself with confidence, strength and respect. I am a tease because I happen to be pretty and outgoing and having a conversation with certain men causes him to desire me, but when I refuse I am a tease ... but if I give into that sexuality I am a whore. It's a no win situation.

All you can ever do is be true to yourself. Say fuck off to all the narrow-minded, insecure people who aren't the least bit comfortable with an attractive, intelligent, confident, charming, sexy, whitty, woman. Don't allow them to lower you to their level (but I doubt you would.)

There are always going to be jealous people. I have even had friends jealous of my single-parenthood, or the fact that I can throw a good dinner party (and hence was the "center of attention.") Screw that.

You are beautiful and the stupid people will just have to get over it.

Brighid

Majestyk

What, you think flirtatious guys that don't put out are not thought of as teases?

That doesn't sound very flirtatious. You aren't suggesting she alter her behavior, are you? Although that would solve her problem:

"Hey, how about you let me take you to dinner?"

"Fuck off."

"oh... You're not hungry. Got it."

My apologies for not delving deeper into the nature of gender relations in a sexually repressed, consumer driven culture where, advertising and marketing techniques have established strict standards of beauty thereby, creating insecurities in those that feel they do not qualify as the societal concept (albeit artificial) of beautiful.

brighid

No, that isn't want I am advocating ... I'm sorry my sarcasm didn't come through very well and I should know better. What I mean is that she shouldn't put too much time and energy worrying about people who label her and in that manner to tell them to "fuck off."

Each man inviting her companionship should be judged on his own merits. It's usually the ones you turn down who call you a "tease", "dyke" (because you must be gay if you don't want to spend time with him) and women who will call another woman a "whore" because she is (in their opinion) flirtatious, pretty and attracts the attention of men (especially their men.)

Brighid

Edited to add: If you read my posts I have stated at least twice that she simply be true to herself and therefore not change who she is, but rather give those negative, soul suckers the time of day.

Buddrow_Wilson

If one is to dress/act in a way that their cultural views in a certain light, why be surprised when people label you as such? No, you don't have to put up with rude behavior and you have a right to vent your frustrations, but if you are unable or unwilling to change, it would seem prudent to accept that such behavior will occur. People will always discriminate based on dress and actions. Of course how these discriminations and generalizations manifest varies. We must deal with society as it unfolds before us.

brighid

However, a woman need not dress provocatively to be labeled by both men and women as either a tease or a whore. I don't remember Liana saying she dresses in any scantily clad way, but maybe I missed something.

Brighid

brighid

I don't have enough experience with men who won't put out to actually formulate an educated conclusion about that!

Brighid

Godless Dave

This is very true BUT we do not know that Liana dresses or acts in the way you describe. I agree with you that there are some women who behave in such a way as to arouse men in order to manipulate them, and I'm with you in condemning their behavior. But, again, we don't have enough to go on to conclue Liana is one of those women. That's because men are easily aroused even when the effect isn't intentional. I think at this point we can assume for the sake of argument that Liana is dressing in a socially appropriate manner (ie. not slutty) and is not acting flirtatious (ie. excessive touching; hair flipping; intentional cleavage display; etc.) and is still having to deal with the consequences of being an attractive young women. I find that quite believable. I know what a fool I can be around attractive young women and I'm one of the guys with class.

LianaLi

Brighid said it succintly. There exists a no-win double standard for attractive women (yeah, I know, what an oppressed group. It seems almost silly to think of it in such a way, but once you start running into it often enough, it's not so funny.) such that if she's outgoing, attractive, and enjoys being sexually active, she's a slut or a whore. If she's outgoing, attractive, but chooses to be discrete and selective about the men she sleeps with, thus not responding to every man that hits on her, she's a tease. Imbue the same characteristic on a woman who isn't as attractive, or so blatantly, physically attractive, and she's merely friendly. Unfair, unequal, and hardly right.

If one appears to be dark skinned in such a way that they appear to be of african descent, then why be surprized when people label you of african descent? No, you don't have to put up with discrimination, and you have a right to vent your frustations, but if you are unable or unwilling to change these appearances, it would seem prudent to accept that such behaviour will occur. People will always discriminate based on skin color and actions. Of course, how these descriminations and generalizations manifest varies. We must deal with society as it unfolds before us.

If this does not appear as an argument supporting Michael Jackson's operation to change his skin color, then perhaps other flaws in that argument might manifest itself.

It seems prudent to accept that such behavior will occur

As formentioned, people are going to be rude because I am attractive. As a matter of fact, depending on how insecure they feel about themselves, they will downright dislike me. So I am to accept all sabotaging, gossip, or vicious behaviour they do towards me, because I am attractive, and it is prudent to accept such enevitable behaviour. Because this response is the norm in society, that makes it right. Sure it does.

Hear, hear, we can start another thread bitching about them.

Safely assume away. I'm not bitching about the head-swiveling, cat calls, or bad pick up lines I get in bars. I know better. If I want quiet, respectful behaviour, I go to a bookshop where most of the guys are too shy to talk to me anyways. I don't wear red, unless I'm expecting the predictable lines. I dress nicely, but not provocatively. If my cleavage or legs are showing, I don't expect men to be perfectly behaved. Unless I'm in a suit, which should obviously say "I'm trying to be professoinal here, please respect that." As a matter of fact, the girl who's holding her personal vendetta against me in kung fu, does so when I'm in a shapeless gi, usually sweat soaked. So, no, I'm not bitching about the treatment I recieve at clubs. I know what to expect in a bar. It's when I go out on job interviews, and get cars honking, which hurts my ears. It's when women ignore me in groups. It's when people treat me like I'm stupid, until I start asking intelligent questions at the electronics store. It's when former friends turn on me, for no other reason than I can fathom, other than I threaten her insecurities, that I start to get bitchy about how people treat attractive women.

Thanks, Brighid. Actually, it's been tempting a time or two, especially with the girl who's purposely ignoring me. She's even so much as admitted it to my (now ex) boyfriend, when he asked her about it, so it's not my imagination. Most days, I pretend she isn't ignoring me. On the days I feel especially good or vicious, I'm actively nice to her, so that other people see just how badly she treats me. It pisses her off when she gives me the barest minimum of a polite greeting, and it shows on her face. I like giving her enough rope to hang herself with, and other people have started to notice.

-Liana