Perchance

I took the following verses from the Skeptic's Annotated Bible (gospel of Matthew, I think), which as far as I can tell uses the KJV. I can see where love of God might enter into it, as presumably one uses "the gifts" (which I'm assuming means sacrifices) to show love of God, and where "love of neighbor" might enter into it, as presumably not killing someone is nice; but I can't see why (at least from this part) those two commandments are more important than all the others.


5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

5:21
Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

5:23
Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

5:24
Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

Also, I have another question: While I can come up with extra-Biblical reasons for loving thy neighbor (such as wanting other people to treat you nicely, wanting to protect and care for those you like, and so on), what is the extra-Biblical reason for loving God?

In other words, why is this a moral thing to do?

(Not sarcastic; I really would like a reason).

-Perchance.

Kosh

Yes yes, we've heard this before. I beleive it to
be bad reasoning. Education on complex theories
does take time for the human brain to absorb. And of
course, some people learn slower than others. My
big problem in school was always that I learn
too fast, so I'd get bored with the slow pace in
class, and then start daydreaming....

My son has the same problem, they've tried to
diagnose him with ADD....


However... the message which was eventually revealed
in the NT is much simpler than that in the OT.
There's simply no way you can justify it with
that analogy. Which would be easier for an
Adult human mind (unchanged for the last
35,000 years according to scientists, or for
the last 6,000 years according to creationists)
to comprehend? :

1. 10 commandments, Jesus died for your sins, God
loves everybody, tithe 10%

2. <LONG list of laws from the OT>, God only loves
the Jews (well not really, but you're not ready
for the truth yet). etc etc etc

I should hope the answer is obvious...

The Other Michael

Hi Seebs,

Oh I see, it was the old "good God/bad God" routine. Sic Yahweh on them first to soften them up and they'll roll right over for Jesus.

But even if the "old rules" were tossed out for Christians, it doesn't negate the (alleged)fact that those cruel rules were still set forth by their ever-loving and benevolent God.

cheers,
Michael

seebs

If you want to get a good feel for it, read all four gospels, and most of the epistles, and compare the messages. The SAB is a pretty poor source for interpretation; they're just as biased as most Christians are.

In the end, if you really want to know what it says, you have to read the whole chapter, and put it in context, and so on. Often, a passage taken out of context is massively misleading.

Christ repeatedly says that those commandments fulfill the entire law. The other things he says must be interpreted with that in mind, and keeping in mind who He's talking to on any given occasion.

seebs

Simpler doesn't mean "easier to accept". I offer as evidence the context of this thread; there are many people who are constantly fretting and obsessing over huge lists of laws that they feel they need to be "sure" of what they're doing.

Liberty and personal responsibility are uncomfortable concepts for most people. They will seek rules and restrictions simply to be comfortable.

NOGO

Let me guess, you never read the OT either?
Christians claim that God promised a savior in Genesis. How can you now say that the prophets did not know what exactly the messiah was for.

Jesus landed on earth with a mission but never told anybody what it was for.
Right!

What is this if it isn't sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin. There is literally hundreds of places where this is stated in the OT.

Lev 4
24 "He shall lay his hand on the head of the male goat and slay it in the place where they slay the burnt offering before the LORD; it is a sin offering.
25 "Then the priest is to take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering; and the rest of its blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering.
26 All its fat he shall offer up in smoke on the altar as in the case of the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings. Thus the priest shall make atonement for him in regard to his sin, and he will be forgiven.

hezekiah jones

Could it be that seebs is the True True Christian™?

If so, (False) True Christian™, you've been usurped.

seebs

The "promise of the savior" in Genesis probably refers to the claim that "Eve's son" will defeat the serpent. It's not very specific on *HOW*.

ARGH! This !@#*!@# thing broke the quoting, so I can't see the rest of your post. Pardon me while I indulge in uncharitable thoughts for a few moments.

Uhm. *Jesus* told people what He was doing. Before that, all they knew was that someone would come and "do something really cool", with a bunch of vague hints at what it would be.

Perchance

The context argument again...

That's what I don't understand. What is "context?"

I can tell you what it means to me, I suppose, and see if the definitions agree.

When you're quoting from other books to write papers about them (and believe me, I've done it pretty often; I'm an English major and have to write papers that quote from various novels, poems, articles and so on), you have to give context as far as author, title, page number, and who is speaking. Sometimes, if the quote doesn't refer to something immediately obvious, you might have to explain the action of the scene you're describing. But you don't have to quote the entire book (or article, or poem). You don't have to insist, even, that the parts you're quoting are the most important parts. It is considered impossible (at least by the English professors who taught me) to "prove" anything from art, because an artist is inherently either taking his premises from somewhere else or making them up entirely. The best you can do is make a good argument, and make sure that you don't deliberately misrepresent something.

Most of the time, when I've read the context argument in other places, there seems to be an implied assumption that the person quoting the Bible verses is deliberately misrepresenting the Bible. I don't see why. I don't see why the Bible has this special kind of protection, why it's considered acceptable to just claim the verses are "out of context" as long as the person is doing a critique.

Why does the Bible have to have its own context, rather than being subjected to the same standards as any other work of fiction?

Understand, this attitude- that you emphasize some parts of the Bible and ignore others- actually encourages me. I wish more people would do it. It might lead more quickly to people making up their own minds on at least some moral issues, rather than wanting everything fed to them wholesale. But I don't understand why people do it and then claim that they can be sure they've got the most important parts. Surely (especially if you believe the Bible) the person who claims this is mortal and fallible like everyone else.

-Perchance.

Kosh

Nobody here is buying the double talk, seebs...