Arrowman

And I will not post the riposte which immediately comes to mind. I think we should stop the schoolyard analogies right now.

Glory

I was only going for the obvious Lecter reference which, much to my chagrin, took me almost all day to get. I had not even considered anything more offcolour than that.

You are definately correct. We should try to be more mature than the 10 yearold's of whom I spoke.

Glory

Amen-Moses

Just so I'm clear here you would be fine with them having consensual sex with 10 year olds say if that was their law, yes?

Otherwise you are just making a personal judgment of what age a person is capable of consent and then trying to impose it on others, take this to the extreme and look at it from the point of view of a culture where the age of consent is set at 21, from that pov your values are now immoral and most of your peers are rapists.

Amen-Moses

Glory

No, I wouldn't. In order to protect children, you have to draw lines. Some of these would seem arbitrary to some people. That cannot be helped. I am comfortable with imposing my values on others in this kind of situation. I see it as the lesser of two evils.

BTW, many of my "peers" are rapists. One thing that America has produced in abundance is rapists.

Glory

[ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: Glory ]</p>

Amen-Moses

Would you be comfortable with them imposing theirs on you?

If not why should they be comfortable with you imposing yours on them?

Amen-Moses

Glory

I don't expect them to be comfortable with it. Are prisoners comfortable with having their sentences imposed upon them? I doubt that members of the Taliban are comfortable with educated women. How many more examples do you want? How comfortable were Southerners with having abolitionists impose their values upon them? Should atrocities be allowed because someone might be caused discomfort?

Glory

[ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: Glory ]</p>

Amen-Moses

So you are basically saying that you are right and they are wrong?

So why shouldn't Chinese moral values concerning sex be imposed on everyone else? Why in fact shouldn't US values (assuming some general US value could be agreed) be imposed on ME?

What makes you right and them (or ME) wrong?

This I feel is the heart of the matter of moral authority and why we feel we have the right to dictate it to others, without cultural relativism who gets to decide which standards to apply? The mighty, or by vote? (bear in mind that if it came to the vote China wins hands down purely on numbers!)

Amen-Moses

Glory

I am saying that is what I think. I am also saying that if one is unwilling to think that way they become paralysed. It is impossible to stand up and fight for what you believe in if you are not willing to try to impose your way of thinking on others. How do you stop cultural atrocities withoutimposing on others?



I am sure many Chinese would love to impose their values on you and me. They have been trying for some time. It really comes down to what is possible. Changing the entire world is a bit like trying to hold back the tide isn't it?



How about reason and logic? I am not talking about going in with tanks, mind you. One can attempt to educate and argue with people in hopes of convincing them that they are wrong. Ultimately the goal is to get people to see their practices as wrong themselves. The question is, how long might that take and how many people will end up irretrievably damaged or destroyed in the mean time?



Oh believe me I know they would!

Honestly, I don't know the answer to this question. If I did I suspect I would be a richer woman than I am. I can't even affect the kind of changes I would like to in my own culture.(death penalty repeal) At least I haven't yet. Right now, the mighty are in control. If I figure this one out I'll let you know. Next stop Utopia!

Glory

[ October 22, 2002: Message edited by: Glory ]</p>

Amen-Moses

I'm interested to see that nowhere in your post did you accept that YOU might be wrong, why is that I wonder?

Amen-Moses

Amen-Moses

Do you have any evidence to back this up? Personally I see no evidence that China wants to impose anything on me or my culture, in fact it was my culture that tried too impose itself on China (but ultimately failed) without so much as a "by your leave".

Amen-Moses