Originally Posted by ConsequentAtheist

How is that relevant?

Originally Posted by Ravon

Far be it from me to defend Sauron but I wonder Epictetus if you are not suffering from the same malice. Jimmy Higgins called it fair when he said that the trouble in the middle east is that people fail to understand that both sides can be wrong at the same time. I would add that both sides can be right at the same time. Its right, wouldn't you say, for both sides to want a homeland and wrong for either to fuck with the aspirations that each have for a homeland.

When I was in the middle east and met with palestinians I came to understand the depth of their desire to go home. It was every bit as strong as that which drove the Jewish people to come to Palestine. I remember standing on a hillside in 1967 with a palestinian family and they pointed out where they had lived across the valley. I was uncomfortable with their tears because for them to return would cost them their lives. When I ask Lauren to be real and you as well it is because of these experiences. I would never deny Israels right to exist but I agree with rlogan who points out that Israel is perpetrating the same kinds of horrors on the palestinians they experienced. I say that knowing that to a zionist that is the worst kind of blasphemy. But I ask how can that be alright?

Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel

Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't hit out of line with what happened to other cities. Had the bomb not existed they would have been hit as hard. It just would have taken thousands of planes.

Back then we didn't have the ability to be selective in our bombing, and besides, the Japanese war industry was mostly decentralized. There weren't point targets to be hit even if we could have hit them. To hit the industry meant hitting the city.

Originally Posted by Maurice

Sorry but you failed to answer my question. Were the inhabitants of Hiroshima and Nagasaki combatants? Yes or no?

Originally Posted by Maurice

Sorry but you failed to answer my question. Were the inhabitants of Hiroshima and Nagasaki combatants? Yes or no?

Originally Posted by Loren Pechtel

The target was the war industry. Both cities had plenty of it.

Originally Posted by Epictetus

This very well may be true. Palestinians are human beings with normal aspirations and hopes, just as Israelis are. Whose land is it? Whoever is in charge...in this case Israel. Israel does not hold as a primary goal the extermination of any Palestinian state. The same cannot be said of the Palestinians. I do not understand why the Palestinians don't simply accept that this is their de facto situation and work within it; i.e. work from within the Israeli state, not try to eliminate it. This refusal to accept an Israeli state is what sticks in the craw of the conservatives there.

The Mexicans knew that they couldn't fight the U.S. after the annexation of California. So, they became farm laborers, household servants, etc. and now they are the predominant ethnic group in California. Were they to organize, in a democracy, they could essentially "retake" California perfectly legally.

Originally Posted by Ravon

So if I am understanding your point you are proposing that the Palestians should just accept that they have lost their homeland to the Israelis and that they should just resign themselves to living in peace in Israel and if they have enough children they can one day become the majority and retake the country peacefully. What an interesting proposal this is and how little it reflects reality. What about the palestinians in Jordan, lebonon, Egypt and elsewhere that Israel will not allow to return for this very reason. Your proposal is about might is right so if the palestinians have the power to destroy the israelis its ok. If a terrorist has the ability to take over a plane and crash it the people in the building should accept the inevitability of their death. Ouch my friend this arguement has no moral foundation.

Originally Posted by Epictetus

I'm not really concerned about a "moral foundation" where this issue is concerned. I'm just taking a stab at the two peoples living in relative peace without widespread slaughter which is what occurs presently. Israel has the upper hand. Palestinians want their land back. You can blow things and people up, but this will only stiffen resistance. Reform from within instead of fighting from without. Sometimes, it takes a generation or two to get the reform to be successful. Peaceful transition.

By the way, sometimes you must simply accept events outside of your control, such as riding in a plane that is crashing into a building. That doesn't mean you have to like it. But what are you gonna do?