Jobar

RJS, you can talk about Jesus if what you say is relevant here. Just remember that lots of us can quote large sections of the Bible from memory- don't preach at us. Many here consider it insulting.

Do you see how your central question creates all these other questions? We have no direct proof of God's existence; only the testimony of those who say they know of him. So those of us who do not know, but find the idea of God quite fascinating, try to examine this testimony in many ways.

Oh, and Amos would deny being an atheist, I'm fairly sure. It wouldn't startle me greatly if he also denied being a theist. Amos is unique, and like the Delphic Oracle, his pronouncements are often mysterious.

Amos, if I donned my Zen master's robes, I'd likely tell you that RJS is here- therefore he is *supposed* to be here. Of course, if you want to explain to him why he should not be, feel free. On a different thread, please!

GeoTheo, there are people who claim, with utter sincerity apparently, to have been carried off in a flying saucer by small gray big-eyed aliens, and experimented upon sexually. Why are their experiences any more or less believable than yours?

And let's try to keep ourselves focused here. What is God, and if he is all-powerful and all-knowing and everywhere present, how can anyone be apart from him? If he loves everyone perfectly, why does he allow some of us to live our limited lives in such a way that we may suffer eternally?

GeoTheo

Look at it this way. Some people like Schubert some like Black Sabbath. Do they each like them for the same reason? Are they each experiencing the same thing? I think not.

RJS

I wasn't planning on doing anything other than ruffling a few feathers - it was a question posed to Geo.

RJS

Let me try this then. I just posted this on another board (likely violating many rules), but it really is central to the reason behind basic belief in God for many. Therefore, I re-post here and ask for responses.

If you HAD to place a probability on the likelihood of the following statements representing truth, and knew that one HAD to be correct, where would you place the probabilities.

1. Intelligent Life resulted from an external creator of all things we know (including the universe), such creator obviously choosing to remain external.

2. Intelligent Life resulted from random interactions between natural elements found inside a universe that just happened without cause.

Amos

You obviously had a spiritual awakening and you should let things get sorted out in your own mind on its own.

Of course you are welcome to stay and I have no reason to say that you do not belong here other than for your benefit.

Does "son of man has no place to lie his head" ring a bell for you?

RJS

thank you, and I have stated frequently that I am here for my benefit solely - other than maybe being the catalyst for an "ignore button"

no

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]</p>

Amos

That's profound! Things are the way they are because they cannot be any other way.

I actually thought that you were kind to RJS and we all need a little kindness every now and then.

DigitalDruid

Geo: &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Jesus Christ could be likened to a life preserver.

There is no shortage of life preservers in the market : Allah, Jesus, Vishnu, etc. But as per Consumer Report these products fall far short of what advertisers claim.

Geo: &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; If you are to proud to grab the life preserver and therefore drown, it can be said that you drowned because of pride.

It's kinda hard to grab a non-existent life preserver while swimming in a non-existent river (of sin, sorrow - whatever!). Sanp out of delusion and take two "critical-thinking-enhancer" pills and you'd feel better by morning.

Geo: &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; There is no contradiction between not believing in Christ and not believing in Christ out of pride.

Yeah there is no contradiction between eating pizza and eating pizza out of greed. The later is a subset of the former. But your point is ....?

Geo: &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;You cannot believe in Jesus and have pride.

Do you claim you have never come across a christian who is proud? That would be a - miracle!

Geo: &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Proud people don't need a Savior they have themselves.

Thoughtful people don't need non-existent Saviors; so they have to make do with themselves. Proud is one who thinks "My God is the only true God".

Amos

Sorry, I don't have enough time to read all the posts and actually avoid some religious issues.

RJS

That is why I said "No". I am familiar with the scripture and its meaning. I certainly didn't want to be compared to the scribe and debate it with you. But thanks.

[ October 03, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]</p>