Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jobar · 07-23-2003, 09:27 PM

So you think the Pope is infallible, when speaking ex cathedra?

SignOfTheCross · 07-25-2003, 12:11 AM

Yep.

Peace,
SOTC

PeaceToAll · 07-25-2003, 08:24 AM

SOTC-

Okay, I'm new here but let me take a crack understanding this. You believe that the Catholic Church is correct in all dogmatic areas? You then follow these dogmatic teachings as best you can? So you merely follow what is told to you by the Catholic Church? What then, may I ask, do you or the Catholic Church, make of the "Problem of Evil" in concordence to the existance of god as you would have it i.e. omnipotent, omniscient, and all those fun omni-words?

Short Summary of Problem of Evil
--
1. The world contains instances of suffering (or evil)
2. God exists as omnipotent and omniscient
3. God exists as perfectly good and loving (omnibenevolent)

See, here is the problem. Not all 3 can be held at the same time without having a logical contradiction. So this makes the christian god non-existant because since you cannot hold all three at once it violates the deffinition (all those omni-words

) of god.

Free-will trump card answer - The fact that you are blindly following seems to me that you are sacrificing your autonomy to the church and adopting heteronomy. Thus your free-will is limited by the Church no less. Another argument against the free-will trump card of this argument is that if free will is such a wonderful gift why does it lead to such suffering. Would god, since he is ever-omni, not make the gift more limited so that he can make people have free-will but not suffer? Hey if he is ever-omni he can do that can't he? For example you wouldn't give a 3 year old a loaded handgun would you? It would not be benevolent. It would be stupid an irresonsible.

Anyway off I go to read some more. I really am interested in your response.

PeaceToAll

Jobar · 07-26-2003, 12:53 PM

Welcome, PeaceToAll- a mighty fine first post, that. I was going to point out the many instances of the decided fallibility of popes- but I like your more philosophical attack better.

Well, SOTC?

B. H. Manners · 07-26-2003, 03:29 PM

If the pope has the ability to speak infallibly on all matters of the faith, then why doesn't he step up to the plate and just ex cathedra a little more on the many other economic,moral, and social woes that mankind faces.

Jobar · 07-26-2003, 07:29 PM

SOTC:
Of course. You have to remember there are more who "profess" to be Catholic than there are actually Catholic.

Ah, the distant sound of bagpipes...

SOTC, you need to look up the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy.

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07-23-2003, 09:27 PM	#21
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	So you think the Pope is infallible, when speaking ex cathedra?

07-25-2003, 12:11 AM	#22
SignOfTheCross Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 167	Yep. Peace, SOTC

07-25-2003, 08:24 AM	#23
PeaceToAll Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wooster, Ohio Posts: 6	SOTC- Okay, I'm new here but let me take a crack understanding this. You believe that the Catholic Church is correct in all dogmatic areas? You then follow these dogmatic teachings as best you can? So you merely follow what is told to you by the Catholic Church? What then, may I ask, do you or the Catholic Church, make of the "Problem of Evil" in concordence to the existance of god as you would have it i.e. omnipotent, omniscient, and all those fun omni-words? Short Summary of Problem of Evil -- 1. The world contains instances of suffering (or evil) 2. God exists as omnipotent and omniscient 3. God exists as perfectly good and loving (omnibenevolent) See, here is the problem. Not all 3 can be held at the same time without having a logical contradiction. So this makes the christian god non-existant because since you cannot hold all three at once it violates the deffinition (all those omni-words ) of god. Free-will trump card answer - The fact that you are blindly following seems to me that you are sacrificing your autonomy to the church and adopting heteronomy. Thus your free-will is limited by the Church no less. Another argument against the free-will trump card of this argument is that if free will is such a wonderful gift why does it lead to such suffering. Would god, since he is ever-omni, not make the gift more limited so that he can make people have free-will but not suffer? Hey if he is ever-omni he can do that can't he? For example you wouldn't give a 3 year old a loaded handgun would you? It would not be benevolent. It would be stupid an irresonsible. Anyway off I go to read some more. I really am interested in your response. PeaceToAll

07-26-2003, 12:53 PM	#24
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Welcome, PeaceToAll- a mighty fine first post, that. I was going to point out the many instances of the decided fallibility of popes- but I like your more philosophical attack better. Well, SOTC?

07-26-2003, 03:29 PM	#25
B. H. Manners Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,213	If the pope has the ability to speak infallibly on all matters of the faith, then why doesn't he step up to the plate and just ex cathedra a little more on the many other economic,moral, and social woes that mankind faces.

07-26-2003, 07:29 PM	#26
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	SOTC: Of course. You have to remember there are more who "profess" to be Catholic than there are actually Catholic. Ah, the distant sound of bagpipes... SOTC, you need to look up the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy.

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