Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JP2 · 12-27-2002, 12:57 PM

(Sidenote #1: Blame the spelling/grammatical mistakes on the beer. I may come back tomorrow, when I'm less drunk, and make that post more meaningful - so to speak.)

(Sidenote #2: Osiris, do you frequent the HoM forum?)

faustuz · 12-27-2002, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JP2
(Sidenote #1: Blame the spelling/grammatical mistakes on the beer. I may come back tomorrow, when I'm less drunk, and make that post more meaningful - so to speak.)

Beer or no, that was a good post. I need to re-read L�Ẻtranger.

Kantian · 12-27-2002, 08:53 PM

Sometimes I think Camus is just a bad existentialist- despite his brilliant books, the Stranger & the Plague. Camus starts from the premise that a good reason for living is also a good reason for dying. In both cases, a sacrifice is always possible. I'm not sure how that this goes counter to the assumption that life must contain meaning in order to be lived. Of course, Camus doesn't think so, that it is meaningless a better life is possible. The reason why Dostoyevski prohibits suicide is strictly because it is a sinful act according to his Christian morality, but for Camus, he argues that if we uphold absurdity, without denying it or coming up with metaphysical illusions that are actually prevarications, suicide is forbidden. As long as the Absurd is not agreed to, it has meaning. Meaninglessness is inescapable- the only thing is whether one can live with the Absurd or die of the Absurd. But I could be wrong, cuz I need to re-read the myth of Sisyphus again. I never got a good feel of that essayist.

~transcendentalist~

Rousseau_CHN · 12-28-2002, 04:48 AM

I read Kantian work and I agree that Camus wasn't that great an existentialist despite the great essay he wrote.

Lately, I have a falling out with Camus. He said that he had a Christian concern but a pagan soul.

What does that mean?

What is a Christian Concern? What are Christian Values?

They say charity is a Christian Values. Does that mean other people who are not Christian do not practice charity?

The say Redemption is a Christian Concern. I say that I also am concerned with Redemption, but I am still an atheist. I believe redemption is something we should do everyday.

I define redemption the same way I define Socrates 'examined life.'

So I say the unredeemed life is not worth living.

Beoran · 12-28-2002, 10:02 AM

Well, faustuz, I think I now mostly understand your point of view. I think we'll have to agree to disagree just a little. It's a matter of taste to me, and because of my taste, I think I will not read Camus anytime soon.

In philosophy, I seek for wisdom. But, I also seek for vitality and the spirit of merriment. What I liked about Nietzsche's works, Menicus's work, the Tao Te Ching, etc was that I found them fun to read. Confucius' analects were acceptable because they were lightened up by interesting anecdotes, and some irony. There's much wisdom found spread and discared most anywhere. What seems a platitude or something trivial can on second though be profound and striking. So, in philosophic works, I seek wisdom and merriment, together. I hate being bored.

hinduwoman · 12-29-2002, 05:16 PM

Camus is more an absurdist than an existentialist proper. According to him life is absurd, because there is no reason for our existence. when we recognize this, then we become truly free and can live our life accordingly.

Buddrow_Wilson · 12-29-2002, 05:37 PM

"And yet, says the existentialist, we must continue to live life."

Do existentialists make that claim?

"Now my question is, I failed to finish Camus' Myth of Sisyphus, what should force us to continue to live according to Camus"

Are you searching outside yourself for a reason to continue existance?

phaedrus · 12-29-2002, 10:25 PM

beoran

So the message is to accecpt life and go against religion? Being a rebel? That's great.

Accept/understand the absurdities of life and live.

But why then replace it with an ideology that that equally rejects pleasure? No, we need a philosophy that promotes joy, and helps us to find joy even in the greatest hardship

Again i dont think anyone said camus asks us to reject "pleasure".

Quote:

I leave Sisyphus at the foot of the mountain! One always finds one�s burden again. But Sisyphus teaches the higher fidelity that negates the gods and raises rocks. He, too, concludes that all is well. This universe henceforth without a master seems to him neither sterile nor futile. Each atom of that stone, each mineral flake of that night-filled mountain, in itself forms a world. The struggle towards the heights is enough to fill a man�s heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.

Kantian

Camus didnt like being called an existentialist.

Quote:

"Restricting my discussion to existential philosophies, I see that every one of them, without exception, proposes evasion. By way of a unique kind of reasoning, they start out from the absurd and move across the ruins of reason, in a universe that is closed and limited to the human; [there] they deify what crushes them and find a reason for pinning their hopes on what impoverishes them."

His books and essays primarily looked to set aside the technicalities of philosophical theory to appraise life's meaning and the bottomline was - "Does life make sense?" His sudden death in a car crash leaves the answer in suspense. Maybe he would have given his version of the answer if there was/is one

Would love to see a further explanation of comments, as to how exactly you came to those conclusions about camus and any particular quotes?

Osiris · 12-30-2002, 04:16 AM

JP2, What is the "HoM Forum". I don't know if I have been there or not.

In regards to the Myth of Sisyphus, it is interesting how Camus uses a punishment assigned to a 'dead' God to reflect on the meaning of life.

Sisyphus is being punished in the Underworld for what he did when he was living. How did this Myth come into the mind of a man? Someone had to envision this punishment, and the reason for Sisyphus to be sentenced. But, why punish a God? Could this story be the result of a subconscious mind logically giving a reason for Gods to be good?

Camus has found a story which is telling of the struggles the mind was experiencing in mid first century BC. I think the story does deal with the problems of consciousness, but in a subliminal way. I don't think when the story was told, that it applied to the living mortals. And I doubt anyone at the time reflected on it that way.

But why punish your God? How can a God do wrong? I think it is because a God has once again failed to give the correct instruction. This story gives people a reason to have confidence the instructions given by Gods are the right ones. The Gods would be punished for giving the wrong ones.

So what does this have to do with the absurdity of life? Well, lets translate God in the previous paragraph to 'yourself'. And then lets make it absurb by saying there are no right or wrong decisions. Life is meaningless. But, surely there is right and wrong, as I feel bad sometimes, and I feel good sometimes. I know this is true. So it can't be absurd.

Beoran · 12-30-2002, 05:05 AM

Phaedrus, again, It hink we disagree more in nuance than in essence. If I understand Nietzsche corrrecly "pleasure" can be either Dyonysian or Apollonian. Camus has a more Apollonian feel to me, but I prefer the Dyonisian. A matter of taste, which is hard to debate. ^_^

As for "accepting" the absurdity of life, I don't like the word "accept". If a things exists, then it exists, and the world is the way it is.

As a Belgian, I guess I have become used to absurdity. We live in an almost surreal country, here, as attested by the art of the Belgian surrealists. But we also enjoy a "bourgondic" lifestyle, that is , a pleasurable lifestyle. So, I even see absurdity more as an opportunity than something that needs to be "accepted" as if it was something deplorable. I heard a girl once say: "When life gives you lemons, throw them at cars." By that I understand she ment to say that if life is absurd, then you can also be absurd in a fun way. So heck, call me post-modern. ^_^

12-27-2002, 08:53 PM	#33
Kantian Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Konigsberg Posts: 238	wrote this elsewhere... Sometimes I think Camus is just a bad existentialist- despite his brilliant books, the Stranger & the Plague. Camus starts from the premise that a good reason for living is also a good reason for dying. In both cases, a sacrifice is always possible. I'm not sure how that this goes counter to the assumption that life must contain meaning in order to be lived. Of course, Camus doesn't think so, that it is meaningless a better life is possible. The reason why Dostoyevski prohibits suicide is strictly because it is a sinful act according to his Christian morality, but for Camus, he argues that if we uphold absurdity, without denying it or coming up with metaphysical illusions that are actually prevarications, suicide is forbidden. As long as the Absurd is not agreed to, it has meaning. Meaninglessness is inescapable- the only thing is whether one can live with the Absurd or die of the Absurd. But I could be wrong, cuz I need to re-read the myth of Sisyphus again. I never got a good feel of that essayist. ~transcendentalist~

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12-27-2002, 12:57 PM	#31
JP2 Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Prague, Czech Republic Posts: 204	(Sidenote #1: Blame the spelling/grammatical mistakes on the beer. I may come back tomorrow, when I'm less drunk, and make that post more meaningful - so to speak.) (Sidenote #2: Osiris, do you frequent the HoM forum?)

12-28-2002, 04:48 AM	#34
Rousseau_CHN Banned Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Nowhere Land Posts: 441	I read Kantian work and I agree that Camus wasn't that great an existentialist despite the great essay he wrote. Lately, I have a falling out with Camus. He said that he had a Christian concern but a pagan soul. What does that mean? What is a Christian Concern? What are Christian Values? They say charity is a Christian Values. Does that mean other people who are not Christian do not practice charity? The say Redemption is a Christian Concern. I say that I also am concerned with Redemption, but I am still an atheist. I believe redemption is something we should do everyday. I define redemption the same way I define Socrates 'examined life.' So I say the unredeemed life is not worth living.

12-28-2002, 10:02 AM	#35
Beoran Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 75	Well, faustuz, I think I now mostly understand your point of view. I think we'll have to agree to disagree just a little. It's a matter of taste to me, and because of my taste, I think I will not read Camus anytime soon. In philosophy, I seek for wisdom. But, I also seek for vitality and the spirit of merriment. What I liked about Nietzsche's works, Menicus's work, the Tao Te Ching, etc was that I found them fun to read. Confucius' analects were acceptable because they were lightened up by interesting anecdotes, and some irony. There's much wisdom found spread and discared most anywhere. What seems a platitude or something trivial can on second though be profound and striking. So, in philosophic works, I seek wisdom and merriment, together. I hate being bored.

12-29-2002, 05:16 PM	#36
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	Camus is more an absurdist than an existentialist proper. According to him life is absurd, because there is no reason for our existence. when we recognize this, then we become truly free and can live our life accordingly.

12-29-2002, 05:37 PM	#37
Buddrow_Wilson Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Arkansas Posts: 1,589	"And yet, says the existentialist, we must continue to live life." Do existentialists make that claim? "Now my question is, I failed to finish Camus' Myth of Sisyphus, what should force us to continue to live according to Camus" Are you searching outside yourself for a reason to continue existance?

12-30-2002, 04:16 AM	#39
Osiris Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 40	JP2, What is the "HoM Forum". I don't know if I have been there or not. In regards to the Myth of Sisyphus, it is interesting how Camus uses a punishment assigned to a 'dead' God to reflect on the meaning of life. Sisyphus is being punished in the Underworld for what he did when he was living. How did this Myth come into the mind of a man? Someone had to envision this punishment, and the reason for Sisyphus to be sentenced. But, why punish a God? Could this story be the result of a subconscious mind logically giving a reason for Gods to be good? Camus has found a story which is telling of the struggles the mind was experiencing in mid first century BC. I think the story does deal with the problems of consciousness, but in a subliminal way. I don't think when the story was told, that it applied to the living mortals. And I doubt anyone at the time reflected on it that way. But why punish your God? How can a God do wrong? I think it is because a God has once again failed to give the correct instruction. This story gives people a reason to have confidence the instructions given by Gods are the right ones. The Gods would be punished for giving the wrong ones. So what does this have to do with the absurdity of life? Well, lets translate God in the previous paragraph to 'yourself'. And then lets make it absurb by saying there are no right or wrong decisions. Life is meaningless. But, surely there is right and wrong, as I feel bad sometimes, and I feel good sometimes. I know this is true. So it can't be absurd.

12-30-2002, 05:05 AM	#40
Beoran Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 75	Phaedrus, again, It hink we disagree more in nuance than in essence. If I understand Nietzsche corrrecly "pleasure" can be either Dyonysian or Apollonian. Camus has a more Apollonian feel to me, but I prefer the Dyonisian. A matter of taste, which is hard to debate. ^_^ As for "accepting" the absurdity of life, I don't like the word "accept". If a things exists, then it exists, and the world is the way it is. As a Belgian, I guess I have become used to absurdity. We live in an almost surreal country, here, as attested by the art of the Belgian surrealists. But we also enjoy a "bourgondic" lifestyle, that is , a pleasurable lifestyle. So, I even see absurdity more as an opportunity than something that needs to be "accepted" as if it was something deplorable. I heard a girl once say: "When life gives you lemons, throw them at cars." By that I understand she ment to say that if life is absurd, then you can also be absurd in a fun way. So heck, call me post-modern. ^_^

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