Freethought & Rationalism Archive

galiel · 10-24-2002, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Payne:

Galiel, we are just regular people here speculating on the events of the killings. (I won't call him a sniper because he doesn�t deserve the label.) I don't think I was jumping to conclusions so much as just looking at what was going on and speculating on who and why.

You're absolutely right. I just sound a caution because there are actual social consequences when people rush to judgement, even just "among friends". Folks become guilty by association, and all of a sudden anyone who looks "Arab" is accused of being complicit in something we do not know yet has any connection to internation Islamic terrorism.

I have no problem with the conjectures, I just reacted to a claim that it was reported that in fact there was a link. Just being my usual pedantic pain in the ass ;-)

lunachick · 10-24-2002, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David Payne:


But this is still the best country in the world,

No, it's not!!! New Zealand is!

Anyway, I'm pleased they caught the murdering bastard.

hal9000 · 10-26-2002, 08:56 AM

Hey DP, what clued you in to the fact that the sniper was shooting from inside a vehicle for the most part?

Jimmy Higgins · 10-26-2002, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lunachick:


No, it's not!!! New Zealand is!

Anyway, I'm pleased they caught the murdering bastard.

There is a New Zealand now?

David M. Payne · 10-26-2002, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lunachick:


No, it's not!!! New Zealand is!

Anyway, I'm pleased they caught the murdering bastard.

Hum, New Zealand you say? Well if you send me a plane ticket so I can come over and check out your story, perhaps you'll get me to change my mind.

David

David M. Payne · 10-26-2002, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hal9000:
Hey DP, what clued you in to the fact that the sniper was shooting from inside a vehicle for the most part?

It looked like a drive by type of shooting, and the lack of shell casings at the scene made me think they were firing from a vehicle, and the casing was caught inside it. And if it was a moving vehicle, there must be two of them, as firing a rifle from a vehicle and driving it at the same time is extremely difficult if not impossible.

David

Dreamer_87 · 10-27-2002, 12:24 PM

One last comment before I go to bed,

Garotte:

Quote:

The Prophet Muhammed began his "ministry" in the robbing of caravans and the forced conversion at the point of the sword.

Actually, Muhammad's ministry started in Mecca, around a decade or so before the battle you've alluded to. He started preaching to his friends and family, and after being met with persecution and rejection from the Meccan society he told groups of his followers to flee to Abassynia and later Yathrib (later to be known as 'Al Madina Al Munawwara' and 'Madinat Ar Rasool'; 'The city of Light' and 'The city of the Prophet'). Attacking the Qureishi caravans successfully weakened the Meccan economy which relied totally on trade, which eventually allowed a Muslim army, headed by Muhammad, to subdue the Meccans in a bloodless coup.

As for the forced conversions, since you made the claim the burden of providing evidence is yours - compare your claim to Sura 2:256 'Let there be no compulsion in religion, for truth stands out clear from error...' or Sura 60:8-9 'God doth not forbid you to deal with kindness and justice towards those who have not made war upon you on account of your faith, or driven you forth from your homes: for God loveth the just. Only doth God forbid you to befriend those who, on account of your faith, have warred against you, and have driven you forth from your homes, and have aided those who drove you forth'.

As for the last claim I cannot at the moment find the verses or hadiths concerning the procedure to be taken against murderers but I'll post as soon as I find it.

Garotte, if you're going to quote something at least *try* to be accurate.

Best Regards,
Dreamer

David M. Payne · 10-28-2002, 07:55 PM

Dreamer, though I can't talk about the historical accuracy of this or that story of the birth of Islam, the actions of Mohammad etc, I can link 9/11 and other Islamic terrorism to Islam, and that is in a broader sense is what this thread is about, terrorism, big or small. Though I have a dim view of all religion, Islam is the most dangerous of them right now as far as threatening the survival of humanity. Like it or not, it's the Islamic zealots that are looking to create war with the west for our "corruption" and "oppression" of "their people." And these groups will use any weapons they can get to attack us. The worse the weapon, the better as far as they are concerned. Besides that I can think of no weapon used in war and found to be effective, that wasn't used in another, later war. Can you? So sooner or later one of these radical Islamic groups will get and use a weapon of mass destruction. I'll have more on this line of thinking shortly, for your reading pleasure.

David

Arrowman · 10-28-2002, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy Higgins:
There is a New Zealand now?

Yup.
<a href="http://www.copcap.com/media/showMedium.asp?509_LCID1033" target="_blank">Wonderful, wonderful, Co-pen-ha-gen....</a>

[ October 28, 2002: Message edited by: Arrowman ]

David M. Payne · 10-30-2002, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David M. Payne:
Dreamer, though I can't talk about the historical accuracy of this or that story of the birth of Islam, the actions of Mohammad etc, I can link 9/11 and other Islamic terrorism to Islam, and that is in a broader sense is what this thread is about, terrorism, big or small. Though I have a dim view of all religion, Islam is the most dangerous of them right now as far as threatening the survival of humanity. Like it or not, it's the Islamic zealots that are looking to create war with the west for our "corruption" and "oppression" of "their people." And these groups will use any weapons they can get to attack us. The worse the weapon, the better as far as they are concerned. Besides that I can think of no weapon used in war and found to be effective, that wasn't used in another, later war. Can you? So sooner or later one of these radical Islamic groups will get and use a weapon of mass destruction. I'll have more on this line of thinking shortly, for your reading pleasure.

David

It looks like Dreamer has left the building. If not, then perhaps he can discuss why Islam is so involved in terrorism these days.

David

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10-26-2002, 08:56 AM	#83
hal9000 Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: just over your shoulder Posts: 146	Hey DP, what clued you in to the fact that the sniper was shooting from inside a vehicle for the most part?

10-28-2002, 07:55 PM	#88
David M. Payne Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The land of chain smoking, bible thumping, holy ro Posts: 1,248	Dreamer, though I can't talk about the historical accuracy of this or that story of the birth of Islam, the actions of Mohammad etc, I can link 9/11 and other Islamic terrorism to Islam, and that is in a broader sense is what this thread is about, terrorism, big or small. Though I have a dim view of all religion, Islam is the most dangerous of them right now as far as threatening the survival of humanity. Like it or not, it's the Islamic zealots that are looking to create war with the west for our "corruption" and "oppression" of "their people." And these groups will use any weapons they can get to attack us. The worse the weapon, the better as far as they are concerned. Besides that I can think of no weapon used in war and found to be effective, that wasn't used in another, later war. Can you? So sooner or later one of these radical Islamic groups will get and use a weapon of mass destruction. I'll have more on this line of thinking shortly, for your reading pleasure. David

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