Starboy

So let me get this story strait.

1) The professor arranged for a jock to perform pushups on command.
2) The professor dispensed Steve�s pushups and a donut at the same time.
3) Some or most of the students in the class were uncomfortable with getting the donuts and the pushups.
4) The professor refused to dispense a donut without pushups from Steve.
5) The professor was going to dispense the donuts and pushups whether the students wanted them or not.

Lets up the ante. Lets suppose that instead of doing pushups, one of Steve�s teeth were violently pulled from his mouth or one of his digits was chopped off. After all Jesus was not required to do pushups for our sins, he was required to die a horrible and painful death. In this new scenario, assuming Steve didn�t loose too much blood he would survive the ordeal. Now the harm to Steve in this scenario is different than that posited in the original story because the damage will be permanent just like dying. In that sense I think its a better analogy than the original story.

If I were to encounter such a spectacle there would be no doubt in my mind that the professor was very sick, that his pattern of thought was deranged and that he posed a threat to society and should be removed from contact with civil people immediately. If there were others that thought like the professor they would also constitute a threat to civil society and should be pursued and removed from society. All you have to do is examine closely Christian moral and ethical teachings to not think much of Christians.

Starboy

Darth Dane

3) Some or most of the students in the class were uncomfortable with getting the donuts and the pushups.

You weren't asked. Jesus did it so everyone can get into heaven.
Jesus was willing to do this, because he saw that people thought they would go to hell. Jesus in a sense, didn't have to do it, Jesus knew that all goes to heaven anyways, but the people didn't believe, so he used his life to show that this was true.

Gospel of Thomas (113) His disciples said to him: On what day will the kingdom come? <Jesus said:> It will not come while people watch for it; they will not say: Look, here it is, or: Look, there it is; but the kingdom of the father is spread out over the earth, and men do not see it.

The Kingdom of God is inside man Luke 17:21

Wherever we go the Kingdom of God is with us, and so if we go to "hell" the Kingdom of God is in "Hell", thus making "Hell" a construct.



Make sense ?







DD - Love & Laughter

brighid

All this thread has done for me is make we want to eat donuts! That SUCKS because I can't have a damned donut ... evil, evil people!

Brighid

Starboy

That may be so but it still doesn't remove the ethical horror of the entire situation. Getting a benifit at the terrible expense of another being is not what I would consider moral.

Not at all.

Starboy

PS - DD are you a Gnostic?

Darth Dane

That may be so but it still doesn't remove the ethical horror of the entire situation. Getting a benifit at the terrible expense of another being is not what I would consider moral.


Ok, let go of God. Jesus did this as an exemplification of how to act if we want "heaven" on earth. Love thy neighbor.

Be as kids. Kids don't judge on color or creed, if the other child can play, lets play, playing together is more fun.

Ask any kid, what the one rule or law should be. I have a feeling that it will be along the lines of : Be kind to others.

Jesus got a benefit, but on whose account?





DD - Love & Laughter

Starboy

DD, you appear to have changed the subject. My point is in regards the story. Even if the tormented are willing the benefactors now have acquired an immoral stink by accepting the gift. If you make the tormented merely mortal the smell grows all the worse. For the students in that room the moral thing to do would be to stop the professor and have him put away where his crazy notions could harm no one.

Starboy

Darth Dane

He was doing an example. Steve could have said no, the professor couldn't make him do it. Steve even allowed an extra person into the room.







DD - Love & Laughter

Starboy

We are discussing a difference of degree not of kind. It doesn't matter if Steve is agreeable to the torment or the nature of the torment even if it is relatively benign. The ethical problem is for the students. What to do about the situation? Allow the nut case professor to continue his bizarre ritual or stop it? Stopping it is the moral thing to do and putting the nutty professor away and getting help for Steve's masochistic problems is the civil thing to do.

Starboy

Darth Dane

We are discussing a difference of degree not of kind. It doesn't matter if Steve is agreeable to the torment or the nature of the torment ir relatively benign. The ethical problem is for the students. What to do about the situation? Allow the nut case professor to continue his bizarre ritual or stop it? Stopping it is the moral thing to do and putting the nutty professor away and getting help for Steve's masochistic problems is the civil thing to do.

Ok, imagine then, if you bear your own cross, you will be alleviating Jesus. ie.e you do the push-ups yourself.

But as long as noone else wants to, Jesus will do it for you.

You can do it yourself.

For a long time, a lot of humans still lets Jesus do their push-ups. Give the guy a break







DD - Love & Laughter

Starboy

DD, why would I suffer for Steve (Jesus) when I could stop the suffering all together? It seems to me that you automatically assume that people are powerless.

Starboy