Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dune · 06-01-2003, 08:39 PM

-limit her speech in a state sponsered forum.-

So its only at specific times that we have freedom of speech?

It is offensive when a Christian uses a publicly funded forum to push their propaganda. That's all we are talking about here.

Saying I love (instert diety here) is not pushing propoganda. It is expressing her opinion, which she has EVERY right to do. Publicly funded means she paid for it too- so it is her event as well.
Public means just that public. Not yours to ban what you do not like- but everyones to express whatever opinion they have. If you dont like or agree with what she says or sings- bully for you. Doensn't mean she cant say it (or sing it).

Dune · 06-01-2003, 09:21 PM

-There is No God But Allah and Mohammed is His Prophet, and I imagine you would be with me on that.-

You are proceeding from a false assumption. I am not a christian. I am an athiest. I am an athiest who is not afraid of other peoples ideas and beliefs. I am an athiest who cannot condone the suppression of free speech and the freedom to express religion.

Toto · 06-01-2003, 10:28 PM

Dune - if you care about this issue, please read up on First Amendment law. The most recent tactic of the religious right is to find a back door way to get prayer back into public schools, and the tactic they have chosen is to claim that Christian students have "free speech" rights to pray in public assemblies, even though it forces all of their fellow students to listen to their prayer or proselytizing, and violates their rights to be free of religion.

The Religious Right is not doing this out of a love of free speech, but because they want to erode the wall of separation between church and state and give Christianity the badge of governmental approval.

In a public square, if someone tell you that Jesus loves you and will send you to Hell if you don't love him back, you are free to disagree, laugh in their face or walk away. In a public assembly, you are a captive audience, forced to be polite.

Daleth · 06-01-2003, 10:29 PM

Dune,

She doesn't have a right to say anything they don't want her to say at their event. They don't have to let her say anything at all. They don't have to let her express a love of cheese.

The mike is theirs. They are letting her using it, but within their guidelines only. It doesn't have to be about religion. They probably also wouldn't let her swear or recite something erotic or read a passage from "Mein Kampf" or talk about how she thinks the school itself sucked or sing a song that made fun of America.

She has a right to say whatever she wants on her time. This time belongs to the school and the entire student body, and during this time she has their guidelines to follow.

If she insistes upon singing this song, or just because they FEEL like it, they have every right to tell her she's not going to be able to sing anything... Just like the other couple hundred kids in her class weren't granted the right to sing anything.

Dal

Dune · 06-02-2003, 01:43 AM

Dune - if you care about this issue, please read up on First Amendment law-
I do and I have.
Isnt part of the 1st amendment not creating laws restricting the expression of religion?

Censorship of speech you dont like is clearly a violation of the 1st amendment. You stated that mention of God in a school setting is offensive to you therefore it should be banned. Sound like censorship to me.
By allowing her to speak her mind is NOT sponsering a faith.
It is not saying: we the school sponser "x" religion over another because a student at our school does. If so- what faith; christianity? What kind? Or is this just a general christian conspiracy?

As for the what ifs- would you mind if she sang a song promoting athiesm or a song that stated she was an athiest?

Dune · 06-02-2003, 01:45 AM

The mike is theirs. They are letting her using it, but within their guidelines only. It doesn't have to be about religion-

But it is about religion and that is why it is an issue. Doesnt it bother you that all this smacks of censorship in the worst way?

"We are going to allow you to speak, but only what we want you to say"
sounds doubleplussgood to me.

Jewel · 06-02-2003, 04:15 AM

Dune,

You seem to be ignoring all the very good points folks have brought up on the First Amendment and law associated with it. As Toto suggested, I will also suggest you read up on First Amendment law. This issue has zero to do with offensive speech and everything to do with constitutional law.

I'll say this once more -- the First Amendment does not give everyone unbridled rights to say anything at anytime. The First Amendment also protects people from being subjected to religious speech in a state sponsored setting (effectively, her rights end where another person's begin). When she is on her own time she can say anything she wants.

The school is allowing her to speak or sing. This does not mean that they cannot regulate at all what she says. This is not censorship. She can stand outside just off campus an sing away. If she wanted to sing about how wonderful her sex life is they would not likely allow that either. And no, to answer your question, she shouldn't be singing a song about atheism either.

[edited for spelling]

also edited to add:
Dune -- it would also be easier to follow your posts is you used the vbb quote tags when you are quoting other people's posts. You can use the quote button on the bottom of the post or just enclose the quoted text in tags like this (replace <> with []) <quote> quoted text here </quote>. Thanks.

trillian · 06-02-2003, 05:12 AM

She should be allowed to make reference to her beliefs, but it cannot be the main point of her speech. This is out of due respect for the secular nature of the event.

After all, George Bush has our mike on our time with our money and says God every freakin' time he gets up there. Though we really need to make him and Ashcroft quit quoting scripture. argghh. I'm not paying for that!

trillian

Jewel · 06-02-2003, 09:24 AM

trillian1 -- yep. I wouldn't have a problem with (and no one could really stop her anyway) from thanking God for all her achievements during a speech -- as long as she didn't preach or pray over the PA I doubt there would be a problem. But since her 'speech' is a religious song and since she is suing because she did not want to make the small changes the school requested (they could have said flat out -- no -- to the song, but didn't) then I can only guess that the whole point was religious.

Dune · 06-02-2003, 10:34 AM

So let me se if I understand this:
She can thank God all she wants so long as it isn't the main point of her speach?

But she can't sing a song thanking god?
<quote> This issue has zero to do with offensive speech and everything to do with constitutional law. <quote>

But toto mentiont that it shouldn't be allowed because it was offensive.
<quote>It is offensive when a Christian uses a publicly funded forum to push their propaganda.<quote>

<quote>Q. May school assemblies or special events include religious music or drama?

A. Yes. Religious music or drama may be included in school events which are part of a secular program <quote>

there is something from www.adl.org about the 1st amendment. I do research on the subject- my opinion just differs from yours.

<quote>the Establishment Clause does not necessarily trump the First Amendment's protection of freedom of speech; in regulating private speech in a public forum, government may not justify discrimination against religious viewpoints as necessary to avoid creating an ''establishment'' of religion. <quote>

caselaw.lp.findlaw.com

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06-01-2003, 08:39 PM	#21
Dune Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 65	-limit her speech in a state sponsered forum.- So its only at specific times that we have freedom of speech? It is offensive when a Christian uses a publicly funded forum to push their propaganda. That's all we are talking about here. Saying I love (instert diety here) is not pushing propoganda. It is expressing her opinion, which she has EVERY right to do. Publicly funded means she paid for it too- so it is her event as well. Public means just that public. Not yours to ban what you do not like- but everyones to express whatever opinion they have. If you dont like or agree with what she says or sings- bully for you. Doensn't mean she cant say it (or sing it).

06-01-2003, 09:21 PM	#22
Dune Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 65	-There is No God But Allah and Mohammed is His Prophet, and I imagine you would be with me on that.- You are proceeding from a false assumption. I am not a christian. I am an athiest. I am an athiest who is not afraid of other peoples ideas and beliefs. I am an athiest who cannot condone the suppression of free speech and the freedom to express religion.

06-01-2003, 10:28 PM	#23
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Dune - if you care about this issue, please read up on First Amendment law. The most recent tactic of the religious right is to find a back door way to get prayer back into public schools, and the tactic they have chosen is to claim that Christian students have "free speech" rights to pray in public assemblies, even though it forces all of their fellow students to listen to their prayer or proselytizing, and violates their rights to be free of religion. The Religious Right is not doing this out of a love of free speech, but because they want to erode the wall of separation between church and state and give Christianity the badge of governmental approval. In a public square, if someone tell you that Jesus loves you and will send you to Hell if you don't love him back, you are free to disagree, laugh in their face or walk away. In a public assembly, you are a captive audience, forced to be polite.

06-01-2003, 10:29 PM	#24
Daleth Regular Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: NYC, 5th floor, on the left Posts: 372	Dune, She doesn't have a right to say anything they don't want her to say at their event. They don't have to let her say anything at all. They don't have to let her express a love of cheese. The mike is theirs. They are letting her using it, but within their guidelines only. It doesn't have to be about religion. They probably also wouldn't let her swear or recite something erotic or read a passage from "Mein Kampf" or talk about how she thinks the school itself sucked or sing a song that made fun of America. She has a right to say whatever she wants on her time. This time belongs to the school and the entire student body, and during this time she has their guidelines to follow. If she insistes upon singing this song, or just because they FEEL like it, they have every right to tell her she's not going to be able to sing anything... Just like the other couple hundred kids in her class weren't granted the right to sing anything. Dal

06-02-2003, 01:43 AM	#25
Dune Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 65	Dune - if you care about this issue, please read up on First Amendment law- I do and I have. Isnt part of the 1st amendment not creating laws restricting the expression of religion? Censorship of speech you dont like is clearly a violation of the 1st amendment. You stated that mention of God in a school setting is offensive to you therefore it should be banned. Sound like censorship to me. By allowing her to speak her mind is NOT sponsering a faith. It is not saying: we the school sponser "x" religion over another because a student at our school does. If so- what faith; christianity? What kind? Or is this just a general christian conspiracy? As for the what ifs- would you mind if she sang a song promoting athiesm or a song that stated she was an athiest?

06-02-2003, 01:45 AM	#26
Dune Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 65	The mike is theirs. They are letting her using it, but within their guidelines only. It doesn't have to be about religion- But it is about religion and that is why it is an issue. Doesnt it bother you that all this smacks of censorship in the worst way? "We are going to allow you to speak, but only what we want you to say" sounds doubleplussgood to me.

06-02-2003, 04:15 AM	#27
Jewel Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Northern Virginia, USA Posts: 1,112	Dune, You seem to be ignoring all the very good points folks have brought up on the First Amendment and law associated with it. As Toto suggested, I will also suggest you read up on First Amendment law. This issue has zero to do with offensive speech and everything to do with constitutional law. I'll say this once more -- the First Amendment does not give everyone unbridled rights to say anything at anytime. The First Amendment also protects people from being subjected to religious speech in a state sponsored setting (effectively, her rights end where another person's begin). When she is on her own time she can say anything she wants. The school is allowing her to speak or sing. This does not mean that they cannot regulate at all what she says. This is not censorship. She can stand outside just off campus an sing away. If she wanted to sing about how wonderful her sex life is they would not likely allow that either. And no, to answer your question, she shouldn't be singing a song about atheism either. [edited for spelling] also edited to add: Dune -- it would also be easier to follow your posts is you used the vbb quote tags when you are quoting other people's posts. You can use the quote button on the bottom of the post or just enclose the quoted text in tags like this (replace <> with []) <quote> quoted text here </quote>. Thanks.

06-02-2003, 05:12 AM	#28
trillian Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: OC Posts: 1,620	She should be allowed to make reference to her beliefs, but it cannot be the main point of her speech. This is out of due respect for the secular nature of the event. After all, George Bush has our mike on our time with our money and says God every freakin' time he gets up there. Though we really need to make him and Ashcroft quit quoting scripture. argghh. I'm not paying for that! trillian

06-02-2003, 09:24 AM	#29
Jewel Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Northern Virginia, USA Posts: 1,112	trillian1 -- yep. I wouldn't have a problem with (and no one could really stop her anyway) from thanking God for all her achievements during a speech -- as long as she didn't preach or pray over the PA I doubt there would be a problem. But since her 'speech' is a religious song and since she is suing because she did not want to make the small changes the school requested (they could have said flat out -- no -- to the song, but didn't) then I can only guess that the whole point was religious.

06-02-2003, 10:34 AM	#30
Dune Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 65	So let me se if I understand this: She can thank God all she wants so long as it isn't the main point of her speach? But she can't sing a song thanking god? <quote> This issue has zero to do with offensive speech and everything to do with constitutional law. <quote> But toto mentiont that it shouldn't be allowed because it was offensive. <quote>It is offensive when a Christian uses a publicly funded forum to push their propaganda.<quote> <quote>Q. May school assemblies or special events include religious music or drama? A. Yes. Religious music or drama may be included in school events which are part of a secular program <quote> there is something from www.adl.org about the 1st amendment. I do research on the subject- my opinion just differs from yours. <quote>the Establishment Clause does not necessarily trump the First Amendment's protection of freedom of speech; in regulating private speech in a public forum, government may not justify discrimination against religious viewpoints as necessary to avoid creating an ''establishment'' of religion. <quote> caselaw.lp.findlaw.com

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