Jeremy Pallant

Let me give you a potted biography, Finch. The subject is Adso of Montier-en-Der, best known for writing Epistula ad Gerbergam reginam de ortu et tempore Antichristi, which is an essay on the rise of the Anti-Christ.

Born in 910 CE, he became a oblate with the monastery of Luxeuil. Adso became school director at the monastery of St-Èvre in Toul. He moved to Montier-en-Der where he became Abbot of the local monastery. He was called in as Reform Abbott to the monastery in St-Bénigne close to Dijon, where he remained for two years. He died in 992 CE attempting a pilgrimage to Jerusalem.

Now. Based solely on what has been written, in what order do you think the events related took place? Or if you prefer, in what order do you think it reasonable to think that these events took place?

Kosh

Actually, I agree with the Finch here. Using
similar reasoning, I see no reason why Jesus'
appearance to the women, the twelve, and the
"multitudes" had to have happened after his
crucifiction.

Resurrection gone. This topic is now irrelevant.

Jeremy Pallant

<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Kosh

Bump.

Court is back in session. The defense seems
to be absent...

Atticus_Finch

A cute response. However, the text of Luke 24 and John 20 and 21, as well as numerous references in the epistles, make it clear that the appearances of Jesus occured after His death and resurrection.

Therefore, resurrection very much at issue.

Regards,

Finch

Atticus_Finch

I agree that narrative is GENERALLY set out in chronological order. No dispute here. However, I believe you must agree that narrative is not ALWAYS set out in chronological order. This is especially true of ancient texts which did not follow the same standards as we do today.

The question initially was, is there a reasonable reading which defeats the "apparent" contradiction. The question is not, is it the most persuasive reading or what appeals to you the most, just is it reasonable. If it is reasonable then you can not conclude that the two passages contradict one another. The benefit of the doubt should work against finding a contradiction.

Regards,

Finch

Atticus_Finch

Unfortuneately, real legal work (I'm a lawyer) interfered with my ability to respond yesterday.

Regards,

Finch

madmax2976

Only if the "benefit of doubt" doesn't force one into unusual gyrations with the text in order to "resolve" the apparent contradiction.

Your "solution" to the problem is definitely counterintuitive.

I will say though that arguing from contradictions is essentially useless. If your faced with someone who isn't willing to address the text with a critical eye, but rather has the a priori assumption that the text must be non-contradictory (as many believers do), no case you present will be accepted. There will always be some contrived, what if type explanation to "explain away" the apparent contradiction.

Skeptictank

ATTENTION ATTICUS FINCH!!!

I notice you had time to repy to the two somewhat humerous posts, yet however have failed to respond to Koyaanisqatsi's rather well thought out counter to your &lt;ahem&gt; "reasonable" interpretations of the bible.

More importantly however, I have noticed that you have rather cowardly abandoned the thread you started on "Why you believe in the Xian god". There is quite a backlog awaiting your apologetics. It's very unchristian you know to keep good people waiting or flee in the middle of an arguement.

(music) "I feel like chicken tonight! like chicken tonight!"

[ April 11, 2002: Message edited by: Skeptictank ]</p>

David Bowden

Regarding God/Satan and the Davidic census issue:

Fascinating. On the same day as your last post on the "Why I believe in the Christian God" thread, I posted this very issue, citing both relevent passages, in response to your general request for examples of such 'apparent' contradictions.

Since my post there has relevance to the discussion here, I include it:

[originally posted March 28, 2002 10:55 AM in another thread]
-----------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by sidewinder:
I'd be curious to know what AF thinks about the numerous contradictions and errors in the OT and NT?
-----------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Atticus_Finch:

I believe they are more apparent than real. Why don't you give me an example.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wide-eyed Wanderer:
Can anyone explain away these examples of contradictions or errors -- without engaging in equivocation or "special pleading"?

-Isaiah 7:14 is mistranslated in Matthew 1:23; Matthew misinterprets Isaiah as predicting Jesus' virgin birth. Most modern translations - and all Jewish ones - correct the Isaiah 7:14 error made in the Septuagint (which was known to have such errors before the time of Herod the Great). This is a real, not an apparent, error in Matthew.

-Also, did flies and bees settle all over the land after Jesus' birth, as Isaiah prophesies immediately after the "virgin"/young woman prophecy? In that day, did the prophecies about milk and honey and peace come true, as Isaiah clearly prophesied? If not, either Isaiah erred on several points in his prophecy concerning Jesus' birth (raising the question of where he got his prophecy), or Christianity does not have the prophesied messiah (not a good thing for traditionalists). (This is not the only place Matthew has trouble accurately quoting the Old Testament.)

-Was it God or Satan who incited King David to take that fateful census, after which God destroyed many lives to punish David's action? (2 Sam. 24:1 vs. 1 Chron. 21:1)

(One really absurd aspect of this tale's plot, whoever incited David's census, is God's decision to strike the population for the sin of David. It is especially absurd if 1 Chron is correct and Satan started the whole business. As David himself says, "I am the one who has sinned and done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Let your hand fall upon me and my family." God never bothers to explain this action, either to David or to the surviving relatives of those massacred.)

-Are there in truth insects with four legs, as Leviticus 11:20-21 states? And does the hare or rabbit in fact chew its cud, as Lev 11:6 quotes God as claiming? Are these passages really without error?

-Where did Aaron die? Deut. 10:6 says he died and was buried in Moserah, while Numbers 33:38 says he died on Mount Hor, after leaving Moseroth (=Moserah) and passing through half a dozen other places.

-In Judges 7:12, it says that camels were without number as the sand of the sea, and that the human population was similarly very high. Archaeology confirms some human population in the area in question, but there is no trace of camels until hundreds of years later -- an odd finding given the wealth of other artifacts from that period. Is Judges still to be considered correct?

-An oddity of incredible proportions: According to 1 Kings 6:2, and 2 Chronicles 3:3, Solomon's temple was only about ninety feet long by thirty feet wide (area=~2700 sq feet, or about the area of a modern upper-middle-class house).
And yet:
-153,300 persons were employed to build it (1 Kings 5:15-16),
-it took seven years to build (1 Kings 6:38),
-13,100,000 lbs. of gold and 116,400,000 lbs. of silver were consumed in its construction (1 Chronicles 22:14), and
-24,000 supervisors and 6,000 officials and judges were employed to manage it (1 Chronicles 23:4).
-How many builders, supervisors, officials, and judges (and how much raw material) does it take in the real world to construct a building not larger than a Super 8 Motel?

-In James 4:5, the author quotes scripture. Where in scripture does this quotation come from?

-In John 5:31 Jesus says that if he bears witness to himself, his testimony is not true. But in John 8:14 Jesus says that even if he bears witness to himself, his testimony is true. Well, one still wonders: if Jesus bears witness to himself, is his testimony true?

-God himself restricts the diet of his chosen people; for instance, He prohibits forever the eating of blood and fat in Lev. 3:17. But in Colossians 2:20-23, Paul says of dietary rules that they "have an appearance of wisdom," but are in fact based only on human injunctions.

-In Acts 9:7 those present at Paul's conversion remain standing. However, in Acts 26:14 they all fall to the ground.

-Also, do they or do they not hear a voice? (The NIV is rare among translations in hiding the contradiction, by translating "voice" as "noise.")

-In Jeremiah 7:21-22, God claims he did not give the Israelites commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices. The Pentateuch is very clear: God did do just that. (Once again, the NIV hides this contradiction, but the original doesn't, nor do most translations.)

-Take Dan Barker's Easter Challenge:
"...The conditions of the challenge are simple and reasonable. In each of the four Gospels, begin at Easter morning and read to the end of the book: Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, and John 20-21. Also read Acts 1:3-12 and Paul's tiny version of the story in I Corinthians 15:3-8. Then, without omitting a single detail from these separate accounts, write a simple, chronological narrative of the events between the resurrection and the ascension: what happened; who said what, when; and where these things happened.
"The important condition to the challenge is that not one single biblical detail be omitted..."

-And while we're harmonizing the end of Jesus' life, his Davidic lineage needs some attention. Using Matthew 1:1-16 and Luke 3:23-38 as incontrovertible authorities, compile Joseph's family tree - without omitting any names listed by these authors. Also, what purpose does it serve to cite Joseph's ancestry if Jesus wasn't really his son/a son of David?

-It is known from other historical sources that the punishment for Roman soldiers who fall asleep on their watch was death. Why would Matthew record that a group of them accepted money and a worthless pledge of safety, in exchange for their death-inviting testimony? (Also, if Roman soldiers could die for what they knew to be a lie, couldn't the earliest Christian martyrs?)

[edited to highlight Satan/God and the census]

[ April 11, 2002: Message edited by: wide-eyed wanderer ]</p>