Albion

If you want 100% proof of things, you're taking courses in the wrong subject. Science isn't about proof; that's a concept for mathematics or law. Science is about fitting theories and observatiions together and using the theories to explain the observations. No, we can't prove 100% that the Earth isn't 6000 years old and just looks ancient, and we can't prove 100% that it wasn't created last Tuesday by the cosmic pink dragon. Science doesn't address supernatural causes because there's no way to test them.

Any particular reason why a wrathful God would have arranged those fossils in such obvious layers, and arranged for the radioactivity in the associated rocks to indicate that the rocks were billions of years old?

Then we really are in the realms of speculation. There's no way to test a prediction like that, which is why it doesn't come under the heading of science.

Evolution works by changes to the species that already exist. It builds on what's already there - the horse ancestor had to have been there before the horse could have evolved from it. They didn't all appear at the same time because there would be no evolutionary mechanism by which they could do that.

Far as I know, all species are still evolving; environmental and reproductive conditions make some species evolve faster than others - fast-reproducing species living in an isolated environment under conditions of environmental stress witll evolve faster than species that reproduce slowly and are living in stress-free areas where offspring are likely to survive.

ps418

The bible could date the earth up to 15,000 years maybe?

Nope. If one assumes that Adam was created about the same time as the earth, then the geneaologies date the creation of earth at ~4000BC. How anyone could derive a date of 15,000 yrs BP from the bible is beyond me. According to Answers in Genesis list of "<a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/Home/Area/faq/dont_use.asp" target="_blank">Arguments we think creationists should NOT use </a>":

‘There are gaps in the genealogies of Genesis 5 and 11 so the Earth may be 10,000 years old or even more.’ This is not so. The language is clear that they are strict chronologies, especially because they give the age of the father at the birth of the next name in line. So the Earth is only about 6,000 years old.

See also the <a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4128.asp#genealogies" target="_blank">Exegesis on the geneaolgies from AiG.</a>

Patrick

excreationist

About dating things in the Bible:
from <a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/3563.asp" target="_blank">AiG - The Date of Noah</a>:
"...The Biblical data places the Flood at 2304 BC + 11 years.

This date is, as expected, in conflict with secular archaeology which regards the Flood as either local or a myth and the Biblical chronologies as irrelevant or inaccurate.

The placing of a catastrophic global flood in the year 2304 BC means that all civilizations discovered by archaeology must fit into the last 4285 years...."

Most of the fossil record would have been laid down about 4300 years ago as well.

<a href="http://members.ozemail.com.au/~wenke/bible/genealogies.htm" target="_blank">Here</a> are some charts of Bible genealogies. I've worked out that the flood would have happened at 2552 BC and the creation of Adam would have happened at 3916 BC. Since AiG's dating of the flood is about 250 years more recent than mine, their dating of the creation of Adam would also be about 250 years more recent... so it would be *less* than 6000 years ago. Note that in Luke 3 the genealogies correspond exactly with those in Genesis, right up to Adam. The genealogies in Matthew 1 only go back as far as Abraham. Note also that if the long life-spans aren't taken literally the creation of Adam would have only been 4000 or 5000 years ago and the flood would be dated sooner as well.

Caverdude

Hey GTX,
I do not agree at all with creationists views, however, I do commend you on sticking to your guns and engaging in serious debate while keeping it very polite (not like many other such debates on this BB). But BEWARE...SCIGIRL is a very formidable opponent. She knows her chromosomes!!! Have fun! And SCIGIRL: Keep up the good work. You always make me reach for my reference books when you post.

scigirl

Heh, thanks Caverdude!

scigirl

scigirl

And you choose to worship and love this destructive creature? Ok, whatever works for you!! (Another reason I left Christianity - the complete disparity between old testament (father) and new testament (son). Anyway, that's a subject for another thread I suppose.
Um, have you ever actually been to Bozeman? Not a mine in sight, and it's absolutely gorgeous! Why do you think all the movie stars are moving here? Of course I'm slightly biased.
I have two friends in graduate school who are currently working under Dr. Jack Horner studying paleontology. Very smart guys - too bad they are too busy to post here!
<a href="http://museum.montana.edu/" target="_blank">Check it out. </a>

scigirl

[ July 20, 2002: Message edited by: scigirl ]</p>

Badfish

I just said I have bowled many tounaments there, and my friend goes to school there, I know Bozeman well, I also know where the Sunlight mine is on the east side of Whitehall, which would make it 60 some miles from you. Oh yes they mine close to Bozo.

I have been in the surrounding area for 13 years, I know it very well.

Secular Pinoy

GTX,

Darn, the only other bowling enthusiast and he happens to be a creationist. Hehehe. I bowl a lot as well (well, I used to). I bowl southpaw and I average 190+. The lanes here either have oil up to the pin (thus with no back end) or they are bone dry. Hope you improve your game (impressive as it is), and learn evolution too.

BTW, do you play Regional PBA tourneys, the National PBA Tour, or amateur events?

Badfish

I am a righty, I am taking the summer off, where I bowled in Montana, we had a medium condition,(oil to 34ft. and buff to 38ft.) with too much back end! I crank it pretty good, so when the oil carries down and I get less back end, I get better as long as there is some decent head oil left.

Before I moved to go to school , I had a sponsor offer to pay for me to bowl in some PBA regionals, I so bowl only in amateur events.

scigirl

(scigirl is confused by the bowling terminology and quickly changes the subject)

So, about those chromosome fusion events as evidence by extra telomeres and centromeres?



scigirl