Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The Messiah · 06-05-2002, 05:07 AM

I will let them think or believe whatever they want to think or believe, but, if I end up teaching theology, I will be in a Catholic HS, so I must teach Catholic doctrine.
[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: Gemma Therese ]

What if they said that Allah was the one true God and Osama Bin Laden was the liberator and you were the infidel and would suffer Allah's wrath for your blasphemy. (Try answering this question rather than drawing my attention to the, patently obvious, religious denomination of the high school).

MrDarwin · 06-05-2002, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Messiah:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Gemma Therese,

I am going to be a high school English teacher amd a religious sister.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The prospect of you getting you hands on children terrifies me. Will you endeavour to show them the fulfilling ways of true ignorance. Blinding them with the joyous light of absolute stupidity. Who knows perhaps you could create a fundamentalist ready to hurl himself selflessly against the crimes of Allah against God's chosen people, or some other equally unconvincing tripe that any retarded goat herder could have made up thousands of years ago.

Oh, please. I have no love of theism of any stripe and no particular desire to defend Gemma Therese, but this is a bit over the top. Gemma Therese is no monster, she is merely expressing rather standard Roman Catholic doctrine. While I have plenty of disagreements with the RCC, I tend to find it far more rational and compassionate than the fundamentalist sects.

Adrian Selby · 06-05-2002, 05:52 AM

I have to agree on this point, I had Religious Studies as part of my Philosophy degree and the tutors were christians. What was important to them was encouraging debate and questions, and ensuring the candidates were prepared for the exams, nothing more. As a former Philosophy tutor myself, pre-college age group, it was always important that I took a Devil's advocate position in all debate, which, being the UK, meant I spent a lot of time defending the theist's point of view.

Gemma may make a fine teacher, whether she does or not has no bearing on her religion, unless of course she shamelessly introduces her own beliefs, which, as a tutor, one shouldn't do, except, as in the case of another of my lecturers, as a warning against him accidentally expressing his own prejudice. So, the first day we had him, he came out and said 'I'm a socialist, a republican and a materialist. If you find I'm leaning towards any of these in my dialogue with you, please let me know, so I can work harder to present the alternative case.'

Like everyone, he's only human.

Adrian

The Messiah · 06-05-2002, 06:28 AM

Quote, Adrian Selby:-
'unless of course she shamelessly introduces her own beliefs'.

This is what I am trying to establish. However, as a side issue, one must question someone's right to teach if they are passionately espouse beliefs that are utterly devoid of evidence.

sidewinder · 06-05-2002, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gemma Therese:
I will let them think or believe whatever they want to think or believe, but, if I end up teaching theology, I will be in a Catholic HS, so I must teach Catholic doctrine.

[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: Gemma Therese ]

Does it bother you conscience at all that you'll be teaching these doctrines when you don't even seem to be able to back them up with logic and/or evidence? When a child asks a tough question about Catholicism, are you simply going to throw out a religious platitude as an answer and tell them they have a choice to accept it or not, like you've done on these boards?

Gemma Therese · 06-05-2002, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sidewinder:


Does it bother you conscience at all that you'll be teaching these doctrines when you don't even seem to be able to back them up with logic and/or evidence? When a child asks a tough question about Catholicism, are you simply going to throw out a religious platitude as an answer and tell them they have a choice to accept it or not, like you've done on these boards?

I am plaining on teaching English, not theology, but, if it did come up, and I couldn't answer their questions to their satisfaction, I would point them in the direction of great religious texts (Summa Theologica, Confessions, any Thomas Merton, etc.) or refer them to the school's chaplain.

Gemma Therese

Gemma Therese · 06-05-2002, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Messiah:
Quote, Adrian Selby:-
'unless of course she shamelessly introduces her own beliefs'.

This is what I am trying to establish. However, as a side issue, one must question someone's right to teach if they are passionately espouse beliefs that are utterly devoid of evidence.

If I am teaching in a private Catholic or diocesan high school, I have a moral, professional, and personal obligation to teach Roman Catholic doctrine. We give the students our beliefs. They're old enough to make their own judgements on whether those beliefs are "utterly deviod of evidence". I would not have respect for someone who taught theology in a fundementalist Christian school, if they taught Roman Catholic doctrine as truth.

Gemma Therese

Jobar · 06-05-2002, 06:55 AM

To all- please remember that Gemma and the other theists here are real people with real lives, even as you and I. Accusing them of ignoring or fleeing from some point or question, when in fact it may be that they simply are involved with things more important than highly abstract discussions on a computer discussion board, is inappropriate. Also remember that they are being flooded with questions by many who disagree with them; if you consider your question important, simply repeat it, politely, until such time as Gemma (or whoever is being questioned) can answer to her own satisfaction.

I warn everyone involved- as long as our theistic members maintain a polite demeanor, and make reasonable attempts to answer questions asked in a reasonable amount of time (which I consider to be days or even weeks- one of the great advantages of boards such as this is that it gives us time to really *think* about our answers), both the policies of this board and I personally deem it inappropriate to accuse them of intellectual cowardice. Even if we disagree loudly and strenuously with the beliefs of theists, ad hominem arguments and similar displays of bad manners will be dealt with summarily.

MrDarwin · 06-05-2002, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sidewinder:

Does it bother you conscience at all that you'll be teaching these doctrines when you don't even seem to be able to back them up with logic and/or evidence? When a child asks a tough question about Catholicism, are you simply going to throw out a religious platitude as an answer and tell them they have a choice to accept it or not, like you've done on these boards?

This is a much more critical question, to me. I'm not looking for reasons why I should believe the way somebody else does; I'm trying to figure out why they believe what they do. Many theists in general, and Gemma Therese in particular, seem unable to tell us why they believe what they believe, other than in very vague, and often mystical, terms.

Gemma Therese · 06-05-2002, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrDarwin:


This is a much more critical question, to me. I'm not looking for reasons why I should believe the way somebody else does; I'm trying to figure out why they believe what they do. Many theists in general, and Gemma Therese in particular, seem unable to tell us why they believe what they believe, other than in very vague, and often mystical, terms.

I don't know -- or pretend to know -- the entire "why" of why I believe in God. I just do -- in my being, I know it must be true.

[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: Gemma Therese ]

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06-05-2002, 05:07 AM	#141
The Messiah Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Port Elizabeth, South Africa Posts: 70	I will let them think or believe whatever they want to think or believe, but, if I end up teaching theology, I will be in a Catholic HS, so I must teach Catholic doctrine. [ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: Gemma Therese ] What if they said that Allah was the one true God and Osama Bin Laden was the liberator and you were the infidel and would suffer Allah's wrath for your blasphemy. (Try answering this question rather than drawing my attention to the, patently obvious, religious denomination of the high school).

06-05-2002, 05:52 AM	#143
Adrian Selby Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Farnham, UK Posts: 859	I have to agree on this point, I had Religious Studies as part of my Philosophy degree and the tutors were christians. What was important to them was encouraging debate and questions, and ensuring the candidates were prepared for the exams, nothing more. As a former Philosophy tutor myself, pre-college age group, it was always important that I took a Devil's advocate position in all debate, which, being the UK, meant I spent a lot of time defending the theist's point of view. Gemma may make a fine teacher, whether she does or not has no bearing on her religion, unless of course she shamelessly introduces her own beliefs, which, as a tutor, one shouldn't do, except, as in the case of another of my lecturers, as a warning against him accidentally expressing his own prejudice. So, the first day we had him, he came out and said 'I'm a socialist, a republican and a materialist. If you find I'm leaning towards any of these in my dialogue with you, please let me know, so I can work harder to present the alternative case.' Like everyone, he's only human. Adrian

06-05-2002, 06:28 AM	#144
The Messiah Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Port Elizabeth, South Africa Posts: 70	Quote, Adrian Selby:- 'unless of course she shamelessly introduces her own beliefs'. This is what I am trying to establish. However, as a side issue, one must question someone's right to teach if they are passionately espouse beliefs that are utterly devoid of evidence.

06-05-2002, 06:55 AM	#148
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	To all- please remember that Gemma and the other theists here are real people with real lives, even as you and I. Accusing them of ignoring or fleeing from some point or question, when in fact it may be that they simply are involved with things more important than highly abstract discussions on a computer discussion board, is inappropriate. Also remember that they are being flooded with questions by many who disagree with them; if you consider your question important, simply repeat it, politely, until such time as Gemma (or whoever is being questioned) can answer to her own satisfaction. I warn everyone involved- as long as our theistic members maintain a polite demeanor, and make reasonable attempts to answer questions asked in a reasonable amount of time (which I consider to be days or even weeks- one of the great advantages of boards such as this is that it gives us time to really think about our answers), both the policies of this board and I personally deem it inappropriate to accuse them of intellectual cowardice. Even if we disagree loudly and strenuously with the beliefs of theists, ad hominem arguments and similar displays of bad manners will be dealt with summarily.

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