rebelnerd

morality 1. rightness or wrongness, as of an action 2. right or moral conduct 3. moral principles
-Webster's New World Dictionary

It doesn't surprise me, my own observations in life have shown me how stupid people can be. What I said was it pissed me off. And that is a moral judgment.

Filo

[ June 29, 2002: Message edited by: Filo Quiggens ]</p>

Media-1

Well, it isn't morally wrong to be a stupid person, is it?

Media-1

I ate Pascal's Wafer

We're pissed off because children baking in cars goes against our own morals. The woman may have thought she wasn't doing anything wrong, but her actions go against the basic morality of our society. When we apply the accepted morals in the society to the situation, we notice that what this woman did was an immoral and irresponsible act.

It doesn't necessarily surprise me since there have been several insane people over the years. However, her actions go against the accepted moral system of our society.

We would be dodging your question to say we're pissed because she broke the law. You seemed to be talking about morality. If we said that what she did was wrong because it was illegal, you may wonder why it's illegal in the first place. Well, it's illegal because it's immoral. Why is it immoral? We didn't bring up the legality issue because it would lead us back to where we are now. I, for one, don't feel like doing that.

-Nick

lynx

i think you would be best qualified to answer that.

/lynx slaps herself for beingrude, but feels it's justified in this case.

rebelnerd

Nice attempt at diversion. Why don't you tell me? And could you address my other questions posted earlier?

Filo

Media-1

Yes. If there is no god, and therefore no absolute moral standard that applies to everyone, then it seems that your anger toward this woman becomes a rather trivialized... SO WHAT?

So what, if her morality doesn't make you feel very good. But if a god exists, it is quite possible that there is an objective, absolute moral standard that we are all bound by, whether we like it or not. If that is the case, then morality is more than a...SO WHAT! Then "right" and "wrong" takes on some significance.

Media-1

Illithid

Okay, I'm in.

Morals are values, ideas about right and wrong (or what one should and should not do) which are held by the members of a society, and are trained into a member of that society in childhood. Societies have the moral values that they do because having members who hold these values promotes the survival of the society versus other societies which lack them.

For example, Group A has the idea that a member of the group should help another member of the group when possible. Person A1 is drowning in a river, person A2 throws him a vine, and the life of A1 is saved. Group B has no such idea, and person B1 drowns when person B2 waves goodbye from the riverbank.

Later, A1 warns A2 about a stalking lion, while B2, in a similar situation, becomes kitty chow. Eventually, group B dies out and group A expands into their territory.

Because these values are inculated in childhood, they are held on an emotional level. My rational brain understands why parents defend their offspring, but this probably wouldn't occur to me as I assaulted someone who threatened my son. Preserving the lives of the young members of one's social group is an important evolutionary advantage, and so it is a strongly instilled moral value. So it angers us when someone flouts that value. It bothers me particularly in that it is evidence that this culture is failing to instill moral values into its children, and its survival may thus be threatened.

Human society has grown so large that some moral values are no longer relevant. Some are even counterproductive. Just as with genetic evolution, cultural evolution lags behind in times of rapid change. For one example (in the faint hope that I can broach this topic without starting a whole 'nother flame war), exclusive homosexuality could be argued to have been immoral in early human history. If your birthrate barely keeps up with your deathrate, the failure of any member of a group to reproduce threatens the survival of the group. This is obviously not the case today, at least if the entire human race is thought of as "the group", but many people still retain antihomosexual bias as a moral value.

I understand that since a religous person receives much of his/her cultural training as part of a meme package wrapped up in religion, it may seem that those who have no religion woud have no source of moral training, and thus no morals. Or you may tell yourself that what morals we do have are directly implanted by God. Since many atheists, even those raised without religion (such as myself) behave in a moral fashion, the first explanation seems false. Since many human cultures have held as moral actions which this culture considers vile (human sacrifice, for example), the second thesis seems false as well, unless one holds that God grants different inherent morals to people of different cultures, which renders incoherent the whole idea of a divinely inspired morality.

I hold that morality, though it is situational, is not subjective. An action is moral or immoral based on the results of the action, and a value is moral or immoral based on the consequenses which befall a society which holds that value. This, in addition to its being factually incorrect, is why I oppose religion: it instills values which while they may have been functional at one time, today threaten the survival of the culture in which I live. The world is changing too rapidly for dogma passed down over generations to be servicable any more. We cannot afford to passively accept the value package of our ancestors. We have to actually think about it.

Born Free

Oh fuck what a horrible, horrible story. Those poor kids, what the hell was the stupid bitch thinking of??? I agree she be done with murder 1, there are no excuses here.

rebelnerd

Only by you so far, I only know what I see.


Filo

rebelnerd

Illithid,

Excellent post! That's the most clear and accurate definition I've seen of what I would consider morality. I think it should be posted in the library. Thank You.


Filo