rainbow walking

Theli: "Detrimental"?

How can I think something can be detrimental for a being I don't even think exists?

Rw; Now that was a “timely” retreat.

First you posit a challenge on the basis of assuming that god exists for the sake of the argument.

Then, when the reply is not to your liking you bail out by assuming your default un-believing condition. That is hardly a stance conducive to energetic debate.


Theli: Weak! This example has nothing at all to do with time. I am not eternal.

Rw: This analogy goes to demonstrating that your baseline assumption about timelessness and eternity are faulty conceptualizations. The fact that you are not eternal is precisely the point.

Theli: I have another one for you.
If you were "god" and had created a world with it's own time. While time does not exist where you exists. How can you interfer in your creation?

Rw: If I created such a world and the timeframe in which it existed that would make me the SOURCE of both that world and time itself. Where ever I exist all aspects of me that make me creatively the source will exist as an extension of me if I deem it so.

Theli: Since there is no time where you exist there isn't any time between your creations creation and destruction. And therefore you can't interfer in it. No matter how omnipotence and allpowerful you are you can't do anything to it, since the duration of it's existance from your point of view is 0.

Rw: The remainder of this argument is based on a fallacious assumption that time is somehow created by god yet exists independent of Him. Until you get your postulates ironed out so that they aren’t self negating I suggest you stick to the basics.

rainbow walking

rw: Hi Tronvillion,
Good answer. Good question. My take on it is somewhat different, (big surprise huh). I hold that for us as living entities the only real time is the time allotted to us biologically. Our biological clocks are ticking and all these other methods of distributing our actions along the span of our allotted timeline are just appeasements to assist us along our way.

Now, I am of the opinion that there really isn't any such thing as eternity in the infinite conceptualization we often visualize it.

I make this point by comparing the average lifespan ( using that most crucial biological ticking clock as the baseline)of a human, say 70 years, to the average lifespan of a fruitfly which I believe is roughly 21 days. From the fruitflies perspective TIME must have far different values than from our own. Now suppose God has a supernatural biological clock also in relation to this realm and is utilizing His time to reproduce. How long would His biological clock tick before the alarm went off? 200 billion years? How would that appear to us from our perspective?

If this universe ain't an end in itself but a means to other events then even if/when equilibrium occurs here, these other event horizons will continue.

Theli

My stance was the same all the way. I often write as if god existed when I discouss his existance, don't let it fool you. I find it easier then.
Because by saying "god doesn't exist! god doesn't exist!" over and over again doesn't help anyone.
So even if it seemed different, my stance has been the same all along.

And I didn't bail out, I just didn't understand your question... it seems illogical to me.

Neither can your god be... That was MY point. I'm quite aware of my own finity.

Of course you would have creative control in the begining of the creation process, but if time didn't exist outside your creation you would have no way of changing it. Because if you did, that would consistitute as an event and that would require that time existed in your "space".
And if you would be able to choose a certain point in time of your own creation and change something then the time of your creation must exist in your own space aswell.

Suggestion denied.
So you have an alternative idea on time's structure wich noone else have? I would love to hear it.
By this you mean that time in our universe is indeed co-existant with gods time?
Wich would mean that god'd space HAS time.

Amos

God doesn't throw lightning bolts and the eternal moment does not exist in time and can therefore not seize to exist.

An eternal moment does not exist as a moment but I used the word moment to signify "presence" as in "I am."

Would you like that better?

rainbow walking

Theli: My stance was the same all the way. I often write as if god existed when I discouss his existance, don't let it fool you. I find it easier then.

Because by saying "god doesn't exist! god doesn't exist!" over and over again doesn't help anyone.
So even if it seemed different, my stance has been the same all along.

Rw: Of course, Theli, everyone does this from time to time. Assuming the antecedent to argue the precedents. But it isn’t considered good form to do so and then withdraw the assumption, especially when the ball is in your court to give a cogent response.

Theli: And I didn't bail out, I just didn't understand your question... it seems illogical to me.

Rw: Really? This seems illogical? rw: Conceded. Now is that detrimental to God and if so, how?

It’s a simple strait forward question asking for your opinion on how my concession might do harm to the properties of God? What is illogical about it?

Theli: Of course you would have creative control in the begining of the creation process, but if time didn't exist outside your creation you would have no way of changing it.

Rw: Dude, if I was the source of all time, (however you define that “all”), then I can pretty much manipulate any particular frame of it I choose without being bound by it.

Theli: Because if you did, that would consistitute as an event and that would require that time existed in your "space".

Rw: The time I created would have to exist somewhere, else the concept of “create” is meaningless. If I had the capacity to create a particular time frame along with a world to compliment it I would certainly have the capacity to create a method of real time manipulation without becoming a victim of my own device.

Theli: And if you would be able to choose a certain point in time of your own creation and change something then the time of your creation must exist in your own space aswell.

Rw: If I am the source of all space and time there would be no space or time in existence that existed outside of me as the source. You are trying to privilege time and space over the source.

If God belches out a thousand years every day does that make Him a thousand years older every day? Or a day older every thousand years?

How much space you reckon it’ll take to contain God?

Conversely, if God causes the universe to expand a hundred million cubic meters everyday does that mean God must fill every cubic meter with space?

Theli: Suggestion denied.
So you have an alternative idea on time's structure wich noone else have? I would love to hear it.
By this you mean that time in our universe is indeed co-existant with gods time?
Wich would mean that god'd space HAS time.

Rw: If God is the source of these attributes of existence it doesn’t follow that they would have any impact on Him in the way we are impacted by them. You appear to be creating false dichotomies.

Amos

Theli is wrong and you are wrong.
God does not act because God is the essence of existence only. This is why God is outside both time and space but is made known in his creations that are inside time and space . . . wherefore God can only be made known in his creations (for now). You forget that the first cause is also exhausted by the first cause and try to prove your argument with the first and second cause.

CodeMason

Amos: Uhm... you're a deist now? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Amos

I'm not sure why you would think that because existence is needed to make the essence known but the essence predetermines the design of the creations as they move through time and space over many generations. The creator is God and the creations are Lord God. The creations change with each generation and are eternal after the species they belong to. Opposite this, God the creator is infinite and does not change with the species or he would not be first cause. Maybe my definition of infinite would help. Infinity has no beginning and no end while eternity has a beginning but no end wherefore eternity is needed to make infinity known and is therefore the continuity of infinity.

Amos

Theli

Amos: God doesn't throw lightning bolts and the eternal moment does not exist in time and can therefore not seize to exist.
Theli2: Just my point, he can't. And if the moment were to be eternal then everything would be imobilized.

Amos: An eternal moment does not exist as a moment but I used the word moment to signify "presence" as in "I am."
Theli2: So you are saying that god is in fact eternal, since his presence is?
Presence to what?

Rw: Of course, Theli, everyone does this from time to time. Assuming the antecedent to argue the precedents. But it isn’t considered good form to do so and then withdraw the assumption, especially when the ball is in your court to give a cogent response.
Theli2: I don't see the complication here. You know my stance on this issue, well atleast now you do.

Rw: Really? This seems illogical? rw: Conceded. Now is that detrimental to God and if so, how?
Theli2: I don't know if you are using a different dictionary then me, but this is what explaination I could find on the word "detrimental"-
--Causing detriment; injurious; hurtful--
I don't see how I'm supposed to hurt a nonexistant being. It would be like trying to hit Santa Claus with a baseball bat.

Rw: Dude, if I was the source of all time, (however you define that “all&#8221 , then I can pretty much manipulate any particular frame of it I choose without being bound by it.
Theli2: But only before your creation. When your creation has been initiated you loose control over it. Since the duration of it's existance is 0 to you. The only way you would have control over it's all existance were if everything in the universe was predictable. If so, "free will" doesn't exist. And don't call me "Dude".

Rw: The time I created would have to exist somewhere, else the concept of “create” is meaningless. If I had the capacity to create a particular time frame along with a world to compliment it I would certainly have the capacity to create a method of real time manipulation without becoming a victim of my own device.
Theli2: When will you manipulate that? If you are timeless (eternal) then obviosly there would not be any duration in wich to manipulate our spacetime. Since "time" desn't exist for you, right?

Rw: If I am the source of all space and time there would be no space or time in existence that existed outside of me as the source. You are trying to privilege time and space over the source. If God belches out a thousand years every day does that make Him a thousand years older every day? Or a day older every thousand years?
Theli2: Where did you get this from? Did you just make this up? Do you have a different model of time that could explain how something can change and still have time?
BTW, why would you think that god was the creator of his own time? Since time "starts" at the first event inside it's space. I think you need some more info on the subject.

Rw: If God is the source of these attributes of existence it doesn’t follow that they would have any impact on Him in the way we are impacted by them. You appear to be creating false dichotomies.
Theli2: I'm still waiting for your model on time's structure. Without it, your theories are just based on fantasies.

Amos: Theli is wrong and you are wrong.
Theli2: Fire and brimstone.
Amos: God does not act because God is the essence of existence only.
Theli2: "The essence of creation"?
Do you have any idea of what that means yourself?
Does it mean that god IS the universe?
Does it mean that god designed the universe?
Does it mean that god is the physical laws wich exists in our universe?
I could go on like this forever, give me something more solid.

Amos: You forget that the first cause is also exhausted by the first cause and try to prove your argument with the first and second cause.
Theli2: I bet I could do better than "essence of creation".
BTW, "first cause is exhausted by the the first cause". What does that mean?

Amos

It is quite possible that you can do better than me and you might even be able to recite half the bible.

The first cause ends with the beginning of the second cause. It means that creation is limited to creation and ends when formation begins. It means that Gen.2 follows and affirms Gen.1.

Amos