Angrillori

Ok then.

For everyone who claims I was never in Jesus, was never a true Christian, yada yada yada, lets apply your own ruler. What did Jesus say about the ability of true believers to fall away...

You say, it is written (quoting Satan himself for those few words, if you believe that particular myth Mt 4:5), that no one can remove what Jesus has in his hand. (I'm just summarizing here, but it seems to be the basis of all this 'once in Jesus, always in Jesus' nonsense.)

I prefer to quote Jesus in response: "It is also written"

Jn 15:1-7

I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch IN ME (emphasis mine) that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes.

(Oh...so some that are in Christ are removed...interesting... but lets read farther...)

so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you.

(But Jesus why must you ask me to do something that it would be impossible to NOT do? Or could it be possible for me to NOT remain in you and hence for you to NOT remain in me? And do you mean you would no longer be IN me if I'm not in you? Well it is what you said. I guess I'd fail that whole 2 Cor 13:5-7 test huh?)

No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
I am the vine, you are the branches. If a man remains in me, and I in him,

(Wait, you're saying again its possible for you to leave me Jesus?)

he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

(But what else happens if I leave you and you leave me Jesus? Are you just talking about my ability to bear fruit, or somethnig more?)

If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

(Eeeep! I guess it is about more than just bearing fruit eh?)

If you remain in me, and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given to you.

(Hey kids, just so you know, Jesus was just kiddnig about that last part. Check with people that asked him for favors when they were in him, you'll fiind quite a few who were dissappointed. Which I guess means Jesus was probably joking about the whole shebang....too bad, I was almost scared enough to avoid rational thought and go back.)

So. Even Jesus says you can be in him and out of him.

For more information see Hebrews, the warning against falling away (Falling away? Why warn against something impossible?)
If you've managed to convince yourself that perhaps the people teaching you the Bible may not be giving you the whole truth, well, more power to you. Read the Bible as much as you can and you'll see it's really not anything at all like its made out to be.

But don't take my word for it. Never take ANYONE'S word for it. That's the kind of thinking that lets evil loose on the world.

Christian

Because there are scriptural tests I can take to determine my true spiritual condition. Whether or not I think I'm a Christian is not one of those tests. That is something that is true of people who know Christ, but it's also something that can be true of people who do not know Christ (Mt 7:23, for example). Therefore it is not a useful test of whether or not you actually do know Christ.

Respectfully,

Christian

Carrie

Angrillori,

Isn't it fun knowing more about the Bible than most other "Christians?" Shit, in our old church we would have told these people that they aren't even Christians and that they are going to hell. Some of them don't even realize that you CAN lose your salvation. Man, read the friggin' Bible and it's obvious that you can. So it's good to be in a church that encourages you to read the Bible every day. Then you actually know what it says.

It was scary to know that you could lose your salvation. Our church did teach that "as long as you don't totally walk away from God, you'll be saved." (At least that's what I was told). But that's not true either! In Revelation, Jesus warned against being lukewarm. If his followers were lukewarm, he'd puke them out of his mouth. Yikes! So you couldn't even be a lukewarm Christian and make it! And as you know, there are plenty of lukewarm folks in that church, and everyone says they are saved. Take my husband for example: He never shares his faith ever. And wouldn't you, if you were so excited about God? And except that he goes to church and doesn't swear, I wouldn't even know he's a Christian. He never did "bad things" like drink, sleep around,
do drugs, steal, etc., in the first place. The only changes he's made, are going to church, and he quit cussing. He is certainly lukewarm. He never even talks about God. His whole excitement in life is me, golf, and TV, in that order.

But then, even though the church told me that "as long as you don't totally leave God, you're saved," they also said stuff like, "I'm sure there are some in this church right now who are not saved." So they would totally contradict themselves. And then, when a "fall-away" would come back, they'd say, "well maybe during that time she had walked away from God, she was still saved." Again, they contradict themselves. So there was never totally security about salvation. You could walk away, and still think you might be fine, or you could be a believer and be worried that you are too lukewarm to be saved. It sucked. It seemed to me that only those who were "fired up" for God were saved. Maybe that's true, according to the Bible. If you can't be lukewarm, then you'd better be red hot for Jeeeesus!

Christian

JT,

My experience with knowing Christ is first hand. The assertion that many Bible College students and the great majority of seminary professors do not actually know Christ themselves is what I accept from second and third hand sources.

If you really do think that your education makes any statement at all about whether you knew Christ, I would take that as compelling evidence that you have no idea what an actual relationship with Christ even is.

Where you went to college or who you hung out with has zero (nada, zilch, big goose egg, nothing whatsoever) to do with whether or not you actually knew Christ. It is irrelevant information.

I am not accusing “former Christians” of intellectual dishonesty. On the contrary, I find that they are being very honest. If my experience with Christianity was what they describe (based on what I’ve read so far), then I would have deconverted as well. Pretending something is real when it is not is one of the most repulsive concepts I can imagine. I’m glad that former Christians agree with me on that point … I have difficulty comprehending people who don’t.

I have not accused you of not knowing your own mind. I believe you are sincere. But you have not given me any reasons to suspect that you actually knew Christ once.

Respectfully,

Christian

Christian

IPU,

In me, for example.

Respectfully,

Christian

Christian

Lori,

I'm very familiar with that passage. In fact John 15 is one of my favorite chapters.

I've given my position and understanding about losing salvation in this thread if you are interested. It is a debatable subject, and there are difficult verses to explain no matter which side you take.

I appreciate your admonition to read the Bible as much as I can and not take anyone's word for it. I endeavor to do that at every possible opportunity, but it is a good thing to be reminded of.

Respectfully,

Christian

Carrie

Hi Christian,

You will have to reconsider, because according to your
qualification for being a Christian, I was one, and I knew Jesus and had a relationship with God.

At least at first and for a while. Like I said, of the 6 years, my last 3 years were bad, but the first 3 were not so bad. Like I said, at first, I was glad to be "saved" and I liked the new morality "God" gave me. And I loved "God's people." Did I love God and Jesus?
Yes, at first, though maybe not as much as others, and that's simply because I had a hard time understanding it all. I told myself to not worry about understanding, and just love Jesus. I remember picturing Jesus riding in my car with me, as my friend, and I'd talk to him. I'd also pray to God and thank God for all good things, and for who he was, but that was before I knew much about who he was, from the Bible. I hadn't yet read about the "marry your rapist" and "prove your virginity" and "own slaves" stuff. I did know about hell, and I didn't like that plan, but I loved God anyway, though I made myself love him. I told myself over and over that "God is good, so love him." It wasn't easy to love him naturally. Maybe that has to do with my relationship I had with my own dad. He wasn't around much when I was a kid, and when he was, he was mad. So God also seemed mad and distant to me. It was hard to know a FATHER I couldn't see. Or you could say that I loved God because I obeyed his commands. The Bible says, "love for God is to obey his
commands."

But your exact qualification was: Did I see God working in my life and in my heart?

The answer is YES.

Today, would I say that it was God? No. But back then, I would have said it was God working in my life.

For example: I gave thanks to God for my new morality. I said it was God who got me to quit smoking pot, quit stealing, quit sleeping around, etc. I saw "God" working in my life. And in my heart. I felt different. I felt compassionate, more secure, more confident, more humble. I remember telling myself not to think bad thoughts about people, because I knew God could see my thoughts, and I wanted to honor God in my thoughts and be
pure, and not think evil things anymore. I also thought I saw God answering my prayers. For example, I got a boyfriend, I got married, we got a house, I didn't die in a car crash that could have killed me, etc.

So back then, according to your criteria, I "knew God and Jesus."

However, today, I do not attribute all that stuff to God. I think all these things could have happened without prayer. Lots of people have good things happen to them without prayer. And the changes in my life were due to a fear of Hell, even though I felt I loved God at the time. I loved God before I was a Fundie Christian though. I was raised Catholic and grew up believing that God loves us, but I just believed that everyone was
saved automatically, so of course I loved God.

I am still grateful for the changes that I had while I was a Christian. I'm glad to have morality now. It's just that I think I could have gotten the way I am today by some other means as well. I don't think that only Christianity could have brought about the changes in my life and heart. I could have been a Muslim and had the same changes, or a Mormon, etc. Or I could have been raised more morally, or learned to be this way through life lessons, or just decided to be this way. By THIS WAY I mean that I no longer want to steal, I no longer sleep around (I am faithful to my husband, whereas before I used to cheat on every boyfriend I ever had, because I had an unfaithful personality), I no longer feel like cussing as much, I am much nicer to my family and others, I don't want to get wasted, I do want to be forgiving, serving, giving, and loving, etc. I still want to be this way, even though I'm not a Christian.

Did Christianity make me this way? Yes, and that's what is good about Christianity. Could I have gotten this way through other religions? Yes, and that's what's good about those religions as well.

So saying, "I saw God working in my life and heart," doesn't mean much. I could just as easily say, "I saw Allah working in my life and heart," or "I saw the teachings of Buddha working in my life and in my heart," or "my counselor helped change my life and my heart."

So what have you to say about this?

Infidelettante

So, as I understand you the only way I could convince you I was ever a Christian would be if I were a Christian now. Is this correct? If this is correct can you please explain to me and everyone on this forum why we should continue to believe you capable of honest discourse when it is apparent you hold others to standards which you are surely aware can not be met by anyone including yourself.

JT

Christian

Hi Carrie,

Thanks for your reply. Sorry to take so long to respond ... I'm having a hectic week at work.

I appreciate the clarification too. Apostacy is a debatable topic among Christians, and your testimonies like yours might lead me to a detailed reconsideration of the topic.

I find it fascinating that the athiests I've most been able to relate to seem to have the most completely divergent development as me. The more "hard questions" I come up with and pursue, the more my faith is validated and strengthened. I didn't really grow much as a Christian until I started to seriously question. The more I test to see if my faith is rational, the more convinced I am that I have actually found truth. It's intriquing that the same sort of things that draw me closer to Christ are what led you away from Christ.

Gotta run. I'll be back when I can.

Respectfully,

Christian

keyser_soze

Two things..
1)christian, you have yet to realize that the EXACT same experience that to you proves your standing in faith, is exactly the same one that every other ardent adherent for every other religion in history has experienced. Under that assumption, every god is real. And, since you MUST feel that these people were simply MISGUIDED...Then where does that place you?
2)I didn't create this thread, how is it that it appears that I did?