Megusic

ybnormal, you are completely missing my point

garyp, your situation is unfortunate. i would suggest sterner letters, petitions, and such. if you really want to see a change, you must become more active than writing letters, you deserve to have a secular display as well. you are right, stand up and be counted.

maybe some information about the madison capital should be given. i've never visited another states capital building, so i'm not sure what the functions of other capitals are. In Madison, our capital building is much more than a landmark, much more than some stuffy building where house and senate members meet 4 days a week.
Shadowyman posted a beuatiful picture featuring the Wisconsin capital. In the summer there is a farmer's market that goes all the way around the capital square and contintues towards the Manona Terrace, which you see at the lake's edge at the front of the picture. Other events occur throughout the year which block off the entire "capital loop" to everyone but pedestrians. On any given day you will find many people lounging around on the capital lawn, wandering inside to look around. It truly is a place for the people.

If only a Christian nativity scene were set up in the capital, this would, of course, present a huge problem. The fact that the FFRF has a permit to display in the capital is hugely important to the discussion. It's not as if the secular capital is prohibiting the sign. (Granted there was Tommy's asshole move of getting rid of the original separation banner, but Thompson is out and we have a new Dem on the way in.) Madison is a culturally rich city and I am glad that our diverse cultures are able to display in our capital building. However, the FFRF could have done a much better job on it's display than it did.

The Admiral

Megusic

I must differ with you. As a life member of FFRF I am proud of that sign. I think it's statement is concise and succinct. Short and to the point.

The Admiral

ybnormal

Originally posted by Megusic:
I wouldn't attend a friends Christmas party and yell to everyone "Jesus wasn't real!"

Originally posted by ybnormal:
Nor would I, but this ain't someone else's party.

Originally posted by Megusic:
ybnormal, you are completely missing my point

On the contrary... I suggest that I nailed that particular statement dead on.

Now, I fully understand your overall plea for tolerance, for being "more receptive" and for having "a real conversation". This is honorable and I find no fault with that, however...

Intentional or not, your above one-line analogy to which I responded, clearly implies a private party... a party where you would not be considered an equal to the party's host... a party where you would not feel welcome to exercise your right to free speech.

None of that, of course, would be acceptable in any "people's house", where the people rightfully expect their house to be completely "receptive" and open for that "real conversation".

I may not have picked on that one statement, had you not already, twice, alluded to a personal conviction for the same concept.

Specifically...
In an environment where other religions are celebrating their beliefs, to come out and just say "you are wrong" is a bit rude.

and...

I can see having this sign around the city or elsewhere on the grounds, but in the midst of others' celebration...c'mon.

I mean, I fully understand and accept your "a bit rude" comment as a stand-alone... but I do find your placing such special significance to this being in the midst of others' celebration as problematic.

It kinda leaves me feeling a bit uninvited... that's all.

Shadowy Man

Agreed. He almost makes it sound as though any sign regardless of its content would be rude to place in the midst of their celebration.

The Naked Mage

Nakey's pure reason lobe: Both the Christian and atheistic signs are wholly inappropriate on a government building. The government is not supposed to support ANY religious beliefs or lack thereof. Tear it all down.

Nakey's long-irritated atheist lobe: The atheistic sign speaks many great truths, and its message is long overdue in this great land of sand genie worship. No, we DON'T care if this is one of your precious holidays, because you ain't the only religion with a holy season in the winter, you probably stole your holiday from older sources, and you'd've doubtless bitched and moaned if the sign had gone up in July. Take counter-opinions like you've got a pair, you silly theistic voodoo-practitioning sloths. We haven't sprayed acid all over YOUR signs, have we? I'm gonna get that sign on a poster and have it framed.


I fear the dark side that is my atheist lobe may be the stronger in this dire struggle.

ruby-soho

I'm in full support of this lobe in your struggle

My humble 2 cents,

D

atheist_in_foxhole

Remember, FFRF only put the sign up in response to the xian signs and displays. FFRF would gladly take its sign down if the xians would do the same.

Megusic

I guess I just do see this as a very personal issue. As much as we think of groups and organizations in charge of the events, it is actual people celebrating and being offended. "the fool hath said in his heart, there's no God" offended me greatly, but i think it was an immature move and FFRF's sign was in poor taste as well, in my opinion. No, I don't think that ANY sign would have been inappropriate, it is this sign in particular. YbNormal, i can completely understand your feeling of being "uninvited". I am completely in support of church/state separation, and if the Madison capital weren't such a public gathering place, I might feel different about this issue, but as I see it this is a common place for the people of WI to celebrate their beliefs. This includes nonbelief, but FFRF's sign seems just to be in retaliation. The sign hides behind the front of the solstice, but really has nothing to do with the holiday. Instead of trying to help the people who posted the other sign, and others who are already in such strong opposition of FFRF, to understand the group some more, they lashed out. Maybe I am just young and naive, but I am one of thse "why can't we all just get along" people and saw FFRF's sign as adding fuel to a fire of hate.

The Admiral

Megusic

So we should just abandon the field and let religious triumph by default.

No thanks, not me.

The Admiral

openeyes

Why is it that when atheists let their exasperation show at the religious favoritism shown in places where it shouldn't be present, e.g. government buildings and public schools, and try to "even the score" a tad, we're accused of "not wanting to get along?" :banghead: