Wizardry

Not my point. My point is that the intended consequence of increased humility only occurs in a vast minority of cases. To me, the Holocaust doesn't seem worth whatever Christian converts it may have brought. Sacrificing the many for the few is morality on its ear.

Jeremy Pallant

Yes.

Well, if you want to be known as a person who could have greatly alleviated the suffering of the poor and the terminally ill, but refused to do so, then don't let me stop you.

Wizardry

Why?

RJS

Il'l stick with the 2 billion - its 2-1 against, but much better than your odds

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: RJS ]</p>

Hobbs

We've gone over this ground before. You say that there are things such as love and hope and good and evil and all sorts of stuff like that in the world. Well, I agree. I've experienced them, too. But I've pointed out before, and I hope you will get around to addressing this issue, I don't see any reason to conclude that love, hope, good, evil, etc, have anything to do with some cosmic person you call "God," much less with the character Yahweh as described in the Bible.

When you focus only on the extremes of Love and Hate, Good and Evil, etc, simplistic answers can make sense. But when you see all the shades of gray as brought up in this quickly growing thread, "Yahweh" becomes an increasingly less plausible account to explain it all. Hearing you try to explain it with Yahweh/Jesus just confirms my conclusion that this is an inadequate account of the real world. I used to accept it and believe it, but that was, to my current perspective, childish thinking. But I'm an adult now, I no longer think like a child, I have put away childish things.

A god who cares but lacks power, or a god who doesn't care, or a god who no longer exists, or a god who never existed in the first place, all make more sense of the real world as it really is (warts and all, with the real shades of gray between the real absolutes at the extremes) than does a god who is omniscient, omnibenevolent, and omnipotent.

[ May 16, 2002: Message edited by: Hobbs ]</p>

Wizardry

Quantity over quality, eh?

The Other Michael

RJS said:

Probably thankful that it was happening to someone else.

RJS - here's a suggestion:

Big rock + motion + your sensitive body part, repeat as needed until salvation is acheived

Don't delay - mortify yourself for God today.

I'll look forward to hearing how the experience strengthened you

good luck,
Michael

free12thinker

RJS

Have you answered my question regarding Free Will? I have not seen a response. I just posted the question on the last page. Please read it, if you will, and answer the question, if you can. If you cannot, I'm fine with that to.

Hobbs

So, you think that all who consider themselves to be Christians are real Christians? Even those who think that at least some, and perhaps most, of the others aren't real Christians? Most Christians believe that at least some other Christians aren't real Christians and do not really know God. Thus, at least some of those who think they really KNOW Him are at least to some degree mistaken in their knowledge. In fact, there is nothing, including the divinity of Christ, that all who call themselves Christians can agree on. Besides, those who KNOW Allah, or Shiva or Vishnu, are just as sure of their (equally differing) opinions as these disputing Christians are of theirs. So at least some, in fact at least most, religious believers who are SURE they KNOW God are WRONG.

So, why should I "just accept" the opinions of a bunch of people who can't agree as to what their opinions are? I have no good reasons to do so. The mere fact that they all don't agree on what Christianity is all about does not give me good grounds to accept that Christianity is true. That's why I have to ask whether any of them can come up with good reasons to justify their opinions.

RJS

Well I thought I did, let me go check. If I did, it was pretty close to what you predicted I am answering quite a few questions. To avoid the wolf analogy (which some didnt like), I kinda feel like a kicked a hornet's nest