Camaban

*wishes someone at AIG or somewhere like that would say it*

Or in other words: The better educated, more intelligent people aren't (at the very least) fundies

which goes on further to say that it's the less intelligent people (the minority of intelligence) and the ignorant are fundies

in all probablity, though (seeing as they define Athiest as anything that isn't specifically being a fundie) this is probably a truest statement they've ever made

[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Camaban ]</p>

RufusAtticus

IMO, the number one producer of atheists in America is Bible idolatry, the lifting up man's interpretion of the Bible as not only God's Word but His Will. Thus anything that contradicts "His Word" must be false. Most creationists will use this argument at some time or another to scare fellow believers into not thinking. However this backfires because when people that have been raised in such an environment realize the truth about the natural world, they are compelled to reject religion due to the fundies and creationists insisting that its one or the other.

The two biggest urban ledgends/lies among creationists and fundies is that
<ol type="1">[*]Evolution isn't Christian.[*]Evolution isn't scientific.[/list=a]

Arrowman

I agree. And yet, Answers in Genesis (and Ken Ham in particular would argue exactly the reverse - that not teaching "true Biblical Christianity" or whatever - compromising with the secular view, diluting the Biblical message etc - is the biggest danger. They hate liberal churches. There is a certain logic to that but on balance I think your view, Rufus, is more accurate. After all, it's a lot easier to maintain a religious belief when it isn't patently ludicrous in the face of everyday experience.

Certainly on this board I think I see more atheists who are ex-fundies than atheists who are ex-liberal Christians.

I wonder if Ham realises how much damage he is doing to his own religion

Daggah

Well, technically, Rufus, it really is NOT Christian. I think a better way to word this is:

"Number one lie/myth among creationists/fundamentalists" -

1. Evolution is anti-Christian.

Because it's not. I agree that Christianity and evolution can be reconciled.

Wyz_sub10

There is no direct contrast with evolution and living a Christ-like life, but I think you could not reconcile Judeo-Chritian beliefs with evolution without apologetics or liberal interpretation of the bible.

I know of many scientists who do reconcile the two, but I think this is out of emotional necessity.

[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Wyz_sub10 ]</p>

scigirl

I started a topic about this very question a while back. Basically, I see in evolution-denyers a much more fundamental problem then just denying evolution. Many times they deny lots of other science too. When people deny scientific explanations of human origins and behavior, than the world suffers (and does not progress) because of it.

Here's the thread:
<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=58&t=001126&p=" target="_blank">One reason why accepting evolution may be important </a>

scigirl

[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: scigirl ]</p>

galiel

There are "Wedge II" docs floating around.
I'll see if I can track one down. One of the most important (and most ominous) things is how this has been folded into a Christian Evangelical/Reconstructionist political agenda. Since both my parents were biologists, educators and curriculum developers, I have been aware of the anti-evolution movement for the past 30 years, and it started before that. They focused historically on the Texas Board of Education, because text-book publishers will always try to save money by creating a single version of their books for the entire national market of public schools, and Texas is the second largest market (California is the largest, but creationists have much more resistance there, and the approval process for text-books, I seem to recall, is more decentralized, as opposed to the monolithic Texas system.)

Today, however, the battle in Texas is a slam-dunk each year, and the anti-science/anti-evolution has moved into the local community boards and out to other state-level battles. They no longer argue about text-books as much; they seek to either
A) pass laws limiting evolution teach and/or adding creationism, or
B) just intimidate science teachers to the point that they avoid the entire topic, as happened most unbelieveably in my own town in liberal and education-happy Masschusetts, where a middle-school science teacher had been burned once, in another school district years before, by a complaint by a fundamentalist parent, and, even though the law, the other teachers and the principal at our school would have all been behind him, he simply finessed the whole thing and skipped the evolution chapter.

The Strategy is very much alive, just as the Religious Right is, although they do a lot more flying in under the radar and parachuting their guerillas into the White House, the Pentagon, both houses of Congress, state and local government, and every level of the Judiciary.

The political folks see anti-evolution as a rallying cry to support the war on "humanist values" and replace the Republic with a Biblical theocracy, and the anti-evolution/anti-science folks, not all of whom are Reconstructionists, see the political war as providing legitimacy and access to power for their agenda, so they can kind of come along for the ride.

Add this to the ultra-hawks whose Pax Americana agenda meshes nicely with the Reconstructionists plans for hastening the End-Days, and we face a very dangerous guerilla coalition. I'm worried less about the public face of this movement than about the folks who work behind the scenes.

And sci-girl is absolutely right. This is not just anti-science. It is an assault on the entire field of scientific exploration: there are battles against cosmology (because of the implication that science can explain the UNiverse without requiring an active, interventionist God), against electro-chemical explanations of brain function (because of the implication that brain functions can produce thought without requiring a spiritual mind, and thus a soul), against human reproduction education and any sex education besides abstinence, against providing school counselling for gay and lesbian students, against teaching of comparative religion or teaching in History class about ancient Middle East civilizations, because no one should ever learn that all the stories in the Bible have mythological precedents (such as Zoroastrianism), indeed there is an assault on the entire basis of modern Western civilization, primarily the tools of critical thinking: rationalism, logic and skepticism, and the humanistic values that arose from them, because all of these threaten the authoritarian thought system of organized religion.

Too many scientists brush off these people as harmless or hopeless wackos, and don't engage in public debate on the issues, leaving the vast majority of the poorly educated public at the mercy of religious anti-science propaganda, whic hin turn leads the public to support, fund and vote for their agenda.

[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: galiel ]</p>

Albion

Well, at least the AGU is fighting back, to the extent of having a whole session on the problem educators are facing in dealing with creationists (specifically IDists - both Ken miller and Robert Pennock were at that meeting giving talks) at one of its recent meetings.

This is the ARN thread, actually started by William Dembski, although the whole time I was checking it he didn't come back and debate, he just made his pronouncement and left:

<a href="http://www.arn.org/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000220" target="_blank">http://www.arn.org/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=13;t=000220</a>

[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Albion ]</p>

Gregg

What's especially galling is that these folks present themselves as the "real" patriots. Undoubtedly you'll hear many of them praising Western civilization (and ridiculing "backwards" Muslim nations) and even admitting that the Western emphasis on science and rational thought played a big role in its ascendancy over other cultures. Meanwhile, they're going about trying to dismantle the very things even they confess helped make our country strong, free, and politically stable.

Frankly, I consider them traitors and subversives. That may sound too strong, but that's what they are. They are trying to turn this country into something it is not and was never intended to be, and severely weaken it in the process. Yes, this makes me very angry.

Gregg

Gregg

I wonder how we're supposed to do this and not end up living like medieval sheepherders?

I think it should be illegal for these morons to even use PCs, dammit. Don't they realize that PCs are legacies of materialism?

Gregg