HelenM

Hi jaliet

That makes sense to me.

But maybe if we had started there we'd never get to any specific questions. And that would be boring!

I guess I feel sorry for people who ONLY can find sexual pleasure in what includes animals or excrement.

I know there's an implicit value-judgement on those activities, included in that statement. But it's not intended as a value-judgement on the people who engage in them. I'm sure they have reasons. In fact they must be very compelling ones, imo...given that doing such things must surely lay them open to a lot of derision from other people.

Some people do things just to be different or to show they are not going to be pressured into 'conforming' with the standards of others. I understand the sentiment but I think it's sad some of the things people do to 'prove' a point.

That's...my opinion, anyway.

love
Helen

Ted Hoffman

Oh, btw Tronvillain, dictionary definitions indicate that perverted acts are those that are considered (by who, I wonder)morally wrong. Its self-contradiction to say you find an act perverted and yet say you find it moral. Or is there a middle way? (I know you said you dont find them immoral) If you were to draw a table of moral and immoral, where would you classify scatology. Dont you logic fanatics say I am introducing a false dilemma here!

HelenM

Thinking about 'moral' and 'immoral': if something is 'immoral' then whose morality have you transgressed against and why does it matter?

I mean, does it matter if some people do things that others would find abhorrent?

Is it not ok to engage in private acts that other people don't like, simply because others don't like them?

love
Helen

HelenM

p.s. I think there ought to be a firm distinction made between what other people 'find offensive' and what actually harms others.

I mean, rape actually harms the non-consenting participant.

That's different from some sexual act which doesn't directly affect another except if they hear about it they think "Ewwww!!!!!"

Ted Hoffman

Hi Helen,
Oh, I love that. There must be a very compelling reason why someone would choose an organ of digestion (excretion for that matter) over an organ of sex - for sexual use.
Oh, I'd pay to know this compelling reason.
Oh, btw I have learnt a new word: Coprophilia.

cop·ro·phil·i·a [kòppr fíllee ] noun
obsession with feces: an obsessive and often sexual interest in feces and defecation

Ted Hoffman

So Helen, if for some reason (maybe an experiment) "they" decided to start executing people in the open. And they choose to do it close to your lawn (in your full view). It would be okay for you? Logic people, leave a side the slippery slope fallacy!

HelenM

Hi jaliet

I can understand that if two men together are trying to 'mimic' some kind of penetration sex, they might try it.

I am surprised women would try it.

I was quite disturbed, to be honest, to read on that 'sex' thread in Miscellaneous Discussions, of one girlfriend evidently liking it because she likes pain. Perhaps that was a joke but it seemed serious.

It bothers me to think that a person would just go along with someone else liking pain, by inflicting pain on them.

I'd rather think there are times when we wouldn't 'facilitate' what someone else likes and this is one of them. Because it's not good for them to be that way, surely? If you are close enough to someone to have sex with them would you be happy to inflict pain on them just because they say they enjoy it? I have trouble envisaging that...

I know that on the Secular Web people are very touchy about having morals 'imposed' on them. I can understand that. But still I would hope that people don't feel driven to unnecessarily self-destructive acts to prove their freedom from any sort of 'traditional morality'. People are so reactionary. I wish they would do things because they enjoyed them, not just to 'prove a point'.

But I'm not trying to say that people who do what I am sure I wouldn't enjoy, don't enjoy it...I don't know, I'm not trying to make judgements about what they find pleasure in or invalidate their own genuine feelings about some behavior or other.

love
Helen

Ted Hoffman

I think it will boil down to justifying why we find some acts perverted/ abhorrent - then we could work out something. We have to provide "good" reasons why we find some acts obscene or "immoral". I think the word moral is very subjective and if we have no objective morality, maybe we should just pack it up...coz if we cannot agree on whats moral and whats not (and I think we cannot), then we are evry unlikely to have a fruitful discussion. Whaddya think?

Ted Hoffman

There is something about children who got trained poorly on toilet habits...
I think its connected to anal sex and coprophilia. Could some Freudian person push this conjecture further and maybe back it up with some quotes?

Ted Hoffman

Has Tronvillain gone to bed too? I was thinking he could help us gain an insight into the significance of having anal sex over "normal" sex. As Helen said earlier, there must be a compelling reason.
Maybe there is something "we" are all missing...